Re: The Guru Speaks-very long reply
This WebDNA talk-list message is from 1998
It keeps the original formatting.
numero = 20189
interpreted = N
texte = >>I would appreciate the CEO of Pacific Coast responding to this:>>>>We, who have purchased WebCat got a manual. To be quite candid, as>>my 8 year old says about nearly everything unpleasant.... it sucks.>>>>Sucks except for some basics.>>>>We all need examples, snipplets and work arounds to make our projects fly.>>.>>I feel it is Pacific Coast's duty to document as much as they can. And now>>that Pacific Coast has obviously spent the time to make a video.... now we>>are asked>>to cough up another $600 to watch what I bet should have been included in the>>manual.>>>>Just an observation.>>>>I have used Perl for 3 years now and the are thousands of sniplets out>>there to>>use, modify and gain experience from.>>>>Perl scripts can be purchased ready to go; and if you take the price of>>WebCat and>>now the video, you could buy almost every canned CGI that would do>>everything>>WEBCAT programmers are trying to do now (incuding the price of a LINUX box)>>and save them HUGE time !>>>>Instead, of trying to use Perl of course, we have seen the promise and>>capability of>>WebCat, only thing is when the manual don't do it, we write to the list or>>hire someone>>at $100 bucks an hour to write a sniplet that PERL programmers give away>>free.>>>>Seems to me Pacific Coast should spend the time on examples, code>>sniplets and>>canned projects rather than selling us the manual TWICE... once in print and>>the other on 24 hours of videos.>>>>Think of me as a friend with constructive criticism, rather than a flamer.>>>>Appeciate it.>>>>Mooseman I will jump in here a little late as a long time customer of webcat...Andthis is not an attack on Mooseman. This is for everybody to consider.About May of 1997...seems like yesterday. From the webstar talk list, Kenconvinced me to jump into the beta process of webcatalog 2.0. At thatpoint I was a long time user of webcatalog 1.6. Those who forgot aboutwebcat 1.6 or never used it... Typhoon is robust in comparison. It hadabout 5% of the tags we now use everyday. Everything had to be in onedatabase called catalog.txt. And if I remember right, you had to preparethe data off line in something like filemaker and export in tab-delim. Ican't remember the append tag in 1.6.I think 2.0 went Gold around the middle of the summer of 97. So here weare 14 months later, give or take a month with a piece of software thatwent from a pedal bicycle to a full on formula one race car in an extremelyshort period of time. Here we are with a piece of software that does tonsand tons of things more than what a shopping site is supposed to do.People have made, post-card generators, rumpus inter-action, bar-charts,hyperboards, random banner ads with click through counters, manage filesystems and directories, triggers and countless other features andfunctions that the Pacific Coast never ever dreamed anybody would use thissoftware for. I remember some comments from Grant in the middle of thesummer of last year....you want to do what with webcatalog? And the listmember went off and did it!We as users dream up things and push the envelope daily with this software.We make repeated feature requests and they respond. Maybe some of us havebecome spoiled by some of the stuff that happened over night, two dayslater, a week at best.A year ago this was a Mac, webstar product. Now is a windows NT andvarious brands of server software on that platform. Plus, webten on a Macwith pixo support to interface with Netcloak, SSI and other things. Thenthrow firesite into the mix and Yikes!!!This is a company in my eyes, with a fantastic product, that currentlyfinds themselves spread to thin by all the demands we as users place onthem. Those who use webstar (which I would not trade away and own 6 copiesof), think how fast our problems are solved over there compared to overhere? And I could name many many other software companies who don't hold acandle to Pacific Coast in meeting customer demands for better software offixing bugs.OK so the manual is a little thin. Nobdoy every claimed it was robust. Iwould hate to write a manual myself for this software. But between thepeople on the list and a little common sense and test page here or theremany many people have created some fantastic sites with this software. Ifyou saw the intranet side of PanaVise, you would be amazed at some of thethings we do. Because I am constantly reminded by my employees, wow thatis cool, how you do that, etc. Webcataolg makes me look like some sort ofmagician. How long was webstar 2.1 out before we saw 2.1.1?Ken always preached to new users, start off small, read the docs twice,play with the examples, print the examples out then compare them to thedocs so you understand the logic. Then copy the examples and modify themto your needs as a starting point. Very very sound advise.Now regarding the Tape, with the help of a third party. They have given youan option to better understand the software if you need it. You don't haveto buy it. Nobody is twisting your arm. And I have coded this stuff on 5running copies of webcatalog for a long time. And I am going to purchasethe tapes. Why? Because there will be some minor little trick or tweakthat nobody ever explained, no manual could cover that I will pick-up. Iwill see it different then the way it is being explained on the tapeanyway. My mind works different then the persons who is explaining it.Now you think the manual should be better??? OK maybe yes. But go to yourlocal Barnes and Nobel Book store or CompUSA and see how many books youwill find on the shelf about MSWord, Photoshop, Pagemaker, etc. Or evenbooks like the inside tricks of Pagemaker or Photoshop. Why are thesebooks written. Because the manuals aren't good enough and there is amarket for them. Major Stock Market companies. Bill Gates richest man inthe US and his company can't write a good enough manual??? Now look in theback of any computer magazine and look at all the ads for video tapetraining covering all the same software as listed above. Whole companiesand fortunes are made every day by making training tapes for these majorplayers in the software industry. So please don't bust PCS's chops forhelping make this tape. Applaud them for it. Come to think about it I eventhink microsoft owns a publishing company that sells books and tapes ontheir own software. Why wasn't it in the box when I upgraded to the latestword or excel? Bill Gates could easily afford it!The question about Perl scripts and webcatalog examples...My understanding of perl is it is a free software package supported by endusers. And there are many many sites out there who give advice and storeexamples of perl scripts. If you are a Mac person there was a site callwww.scripting.com (I have no idea if it still is around) that storedsamples of apple scripts. We as users of webcatalog (looking in the mirroras I say this), are guilty of not providing our packages up to the the ftpsection of PCS's site for others to download. Maybe we should create asmall committee of users who have the time and the engery to gather samplesand take over this task. Because I will tell you Jay, John and Grant andwhomever at PCS are smart enough business people to understand the value ofthis to their company. They made the space available and we did not takeadvantage of it as users by providing our samples and packaages. And ifthey had the budget to hire the people to do it, it would be done fromtheir end also. It would be a great marketing tool. But a smallersoftware company like PCS and the Budget they must operate under, there areonly so many resources available to them. And I think they have used themto respond to customer requested features in the product. For me that isthe best way they could deploy those resources. Because it makes the sitesI work on that much more exciting. But for you newbies, maybe it's hightime some us old farts to webcatalog gave something back. Any takers on thelist to do this?Bottom line cut these people some slack! There busting their butts for us!Before I get off my soap box, I just want to thank all the people at PCSfor making a fantastic product that is way more then I ever expected in Mayof 97. And I want to thank all the list member who over the last 18months, have helped me from time to time make the sites I work on that muchbetter then I ever dreamed they could be when they first opened.===============================================Gary Richter PanaVise Products, Inc. 7540 Colbert Dr. Reno, Nevada 89511 Ph: 702.850.2900 Fx: 702.850.2929 Email: grichter@panavise.com http://www.panavise.com===============================================
Associated Messages, from the most recent to the oldest:
>>I would appreciate the CEO of Pacific Coast responding to this:>>>>We, who have purchased WebCat got a manual. To be quite candid, as>>my 8 year old says about nearly everything unpleasant.... it sucks.>>>>Sucks except for some basics.>>>>We all need examples, snipplets and work arounds to make our projects fly.>>.>>I feel it is Pacific Coast's duty to document as much as they can. And now>>that Pacific Coast has obviously spent the time to make a video.... now we>>are asked>>to cough up another $600 to watch what I bet should have been included in the>>manual.>>>>Just an observation.>>>>I have used Perl for 3 years now and the are thousands of sniplets out>>there to>>use, modify and gain experience from.>>>>Perl scripts can be purchased ready to go; and if you take the price of>>WebCat and>>now the video, you could buy almost every canned CGI that would do>>everything>>WEBCAT programmers are trying to do now (incuding the price of a LINUX box)>>and save them HUGE time !>>>>Instead, of trying to use Perl of course, we have seen the promise and>>capability of>>WebCat, only thing is when the manual don't do it, we write to the list or>>hire someone>>at $100 bucks an hour to write a sniplet that PERL programmers give away>>free.>>>>Seems to me Pacific Coast should spend the time on examples, code>>sniplets and>>canned projects rather than selling us the manual TWICE... once in print and>>the other on 24 hours of videos.>>>>Think of me as a friend with constructive criticism, rather than a flamer.>>>>Appeciate it.>>>>Mooseman I will jump in here a little late as a long time customer of webcat...Andthis is not an attack on Mooseman. This is for everybody to consider.About May of 1997...seems like yesterday. From the webstar
Talk List, Kenconvinced me to jump into the beta process of webcatalog 2.0. At thatpoint I was a long time user of webcatalog 1.6. Those who forgot aboutwebcat 1.6 or never used it... Typhoon is robust in comparison. It hadabout 5% of the tags we now use everyday. Everything had to be in onedatabase called catalog.txt. And if I remember right, you had to preparethe data off line in something like filemaker and export in tab-delim. Ican't remember the append tag in 1.6.I think 2.0 went Gold around the middle of the summer of 97. So here weare 14 months later, give or take a month with a piece of software thatwent from a pedal bicycle to a full on formula one race car in an extremelyshort period of time. Here we are with a piece of software that does tonsand tons of things more than what a shopping site is supposed to do.People have made, post-card generators, rumpus inter-action, bar-charts,hyperboards, random banner ads with click through counters, manage filesystems and directories,
triggers and countless other features andfunctions that the Pacific Coast never ever dreamed anybody would use thissoftware for. I remember some comments from Grant in the middle of thesummer of last year....you want to do what with webcatalog? And the listmember went off and did it!We as users dream up things and push the envelope daily with this software.We make repeated feature requests and they respond. Maybe some of us havebecome spoiled by some of the stuff that happened over night, two dayslater, a week at best.A year ago this was a Mac, webstar product. Now is a windows NT andvarious brands of server software on that platform. Plus, webten on a Macwith pixo support to interface with Netcloak, SSI and other things. Thenthrow firesite into the mix and Yikes!!!This is a company in my eyes, with a fantastic product, that currentlyfinds themselves spread to thin by all the demands we as users place onthem. Those who use webstar (which I would not trade away and own 6 copiesof), think how fast our problems are solved over there compared to overhere? And I could name many many other software companies who don't hold acandle to Pacific Coast in meeting customer demands for better software offixing bugs.OK so the manual is a little thin. Nobdoy every claimed it was robust. Iwould hate to write a manual myself for this software. But between thepeople on the list and a little common sense and test page here or theremany many people have created some fantastic sites with this software. Ifyou saw the intranet side of PanaVise, you would be amazed at some of thethings we do. Because I am constantly reminded by my employees, wow thatis cool, how you do that, etc. Webcataolg makes me look like some sort ofmagician. How long was webstar 2.1 out before we saw 2.1.1?Ken always preached to new users, start off small, read the docs twice,play with the examples, print the examples out then compare them to thedocs so you understand the logic. Then copy the examples and modify themto your needs as a starting point. Very very sound advise.Now regarding the Tape, with the help of a third party. They have given youan option to better understand the software if you need it. You don't haveto buy it. Nobody is twisting your arm. And I have coded this stuff on 5running copies of webcatalog for a long time. And I am going to purchasethe tapes. Why? Because there will be some minor little trick or tweakthat nobody ever explained, no manual could cover that I will pick-up. Iwill see it different then the way it is being explained on the tapeanyway. My mind works different then the persons who is explaining it.Now you think the manual should be better??? OK maybe yes. But go to yourlocal Barnes and Nobel Book store or CompUSA and see how many books youwill find on the shelf about MSWord, Photoshop, Pagemaker, etc. Or evenbooks like the inside tricks of Pagemaker or Photoshop. Why are thesebooks written. Because the manuals aren't good enough and there is amarket for them. Major Stock Market companies. Bill Gates richest man inthe US and his company can't write a good enough manual??? Now look in theback of any computer magazine and look at all the ads for video tapetraining covering all the same software as listed above. Whole companiesand fortunes are made every day by making training tapes for these majorplayers in the software industry. So please don't bust PCS's chops forhelping make this tape. Applaud them for it. Come to think about it I eventhink microsoft owns a publishing company that sells books and tapes ontheir own software. Why wasn't it in the box when I upgraded to the latestword or excel? Bill Gates could easily afford it!The question about Perl scripts and webcatalog examples...My understanding of perl is it is a free software package supported by endusers. And there are many many sites out there who give advice and storeexamples of perl scripts. If you are a Mac person there was a site callwww.scripting.com (I have no idea if it still is around) that storedsamples of apple scripts. We as users of webcatalog (looking in the mirroras I say this), are guilty of not providing our packages up to the the ftpsection of PCS's site for others to download. Maybe we should create asmall committee of users who have the time and the engery to gather samplesand take over this task. Because I will tell you Jay, John and Grant andwhomever at PCS are smart enough business people to understand the value ofthis to their company. They made the space available and we did not takeadvantage of it as users by providing our samples and packaages. And ifthey had the budget to hire the people to do it, it would be done fromtheir end also. It would be a great marketing tool. But a smallersoftware company like PCS and the Budget they must operate under, there areonly so many resources available to them. And I think they have used themto respond to customer requested features in the product. For me that isthe best way they could deploy those resources. Because it makes the sitesI work on that much more exciting. But for you newbies, maybe it's hightime some us old farts to webcatalog gave something back. Any takers on thelist to do this?Bottom line cut these people some slack! There busting their butts for us!Before I get off my soap box, I just want to thank all the people at PCSfor making a fantastic product that is way more then I ever expected in Mayof 97. And I want to thank all the list member who over the last 18months, have helped me from time to time make the sites I work on that muchbetter then I ever dreamed they could be when they first opened.===============================================Gary Richter PanaVise Products, Inc. 7540 Colbert Dr. Reno, Nevada 89511 Ph: 702.850.2900 Fx: 702.850.2929 Email: grichter@panavise.com http://www.panavise.com===============================================
Gary Richter
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