Re: Database Strategy - more...
This WebDNA talk-list message is from 1998
It keeps the original formatting.
numero = 18174
interpreted = N
texte = The hardest part of what you are trying to do is going to be synchronizing WebCat instantaneously with another database system. It simply was not the original intention for WebCat. I too am rooting for ODBC in a future generation. I'd think either the whole thing needs to be done in WebCat or no WebCat at all for this application -- assuming that you need real time information on room availability to avoid over-booking, conflicts, etc.FoxPro is a great database product that unfortunately no longer was implemented (or ever well implemented) for the Mac, so I stopped developing with it. It is similar to 4D in size of projects it can handle, or even scales larger. It has very different plusses and minusses than 4D though. One huge advantage of FoxPro to a developer is that it is relatively cheap. Once a developer buys a copy of the program, they can compile and distribute how ever many applications to whatever clients they want, with no licensing fees to Microsoft (which explains why they don't market it well). (more analogous to programming in C++ than SQL or 4D). This cost savings is passed on to the customer also. If the programmers are good and design a good index system, it should be pretty darn fast (the difference between a good and bad index system is the difference between seconds and minutes/hours on response times). It should be able to handle in ball park of 200 simultaneous users without too much trouble and databases have grown to Gigs. It can be connected to a SQL backend if client server mode is needed. It has a very mature record locking system to handle multiple people accessing the same data - they can't all write over the same data, reserve same room at same time, etc. You'd have to reinvent this with WebCat. It has fantastic report generators available that make queries, etc. quite easy to write. It allows data crunching to be done at the workstation and error checking done before sending back and saving on server. It isn't client server mode, so has more network traffic. It does require more powerful workstations (ie expensive) than a browser-based system does. Mail Order Manager, a lower-end order fullfillment system, is written in FoxPro, which they tie to Microsoft's e-commerce websolution. Others use cgi's to tie FoxPro directly to the web, as can be done with 4D. FoxPro is an object oriented programming language that has xBase roots in terms of queries, etc. It has very different searching techniques than WebCat. Somecases, the xBase is better, other cases WebCat offers advantages. One example is the Inner and Outer Join problems of querying related tables. An Outer-Join is quite easy with WebCat, but very difficult with earlier versions of FoxPro. But WebCat often requires many nested searches in related tables where as FoxPro would just be doing one search. I think you really need to understand the business needs of this customer, understand the data that needs to be pulled from the system (summary reports, queries by customers, etc.), protection of data in case of server crash, etc. I think the solution will either be all WebCat or all FoxPro (or 4D or someother language) or something with ODBC to FoxPro. WebCat is a great product. But it isn't the cure-all solution for all web-based systems.Good luck!Sandy >I response to Peter's comments (thx Peter): > > >>2. Is creating a single WebCat solution a better idea than coordinating > >>WebCat and FoxPro databases? > > > >Is it right that the decision for in-house FoxPro is fixed? In this case > >the WebCat solution you mentioned does not eliminate the sync problem, you > >Just to recap, there are two possible scenarios: > >A: In-house agents use the FoxPro solution and I try to keep the in-house >FoxPro database synched up with the on-line WebCat database. > or >B: We scrap the FoxPro database and use ONLY a WebCat database/server >solution which would be accessed via browser for both in-house agents and >outside web surfers. > > >>3. Can a WebCat-based solution handle the speed needs of approx. 40 > >>full-time users (25 in-house, 15 or so on-line)? > > > >What means fulltime? Can you explain this in terms like number of queries > >or hits per minute? > >I do not fear so much for WebCat, it runs still beside a webserver, so >the > >speed is limited and if you optimize performance (even with duplicated >data > >etc.) than it should run. But the 25 in-house users might bring the >machine > >itself into troubles, if they are very active on a 10baseT or 100baseT > >network they can easily lock the server up. Get a fast machine! > >We are estimating a total of about 25 queries a minute, inclusive of all >users. The in-house net is 10baseT - our outside link would be a full T-1. >I guess one of my questions would be, is it faster to have 25 users >searching against a multi-user FoxPro database or can a WebCat/server >solution be as fast? Any database pros care to chime in? (I've seen a >single-user demo of their FoxPro system and was underwhelmed by the >performance but its still in development so its probably too early to >tell.) >Thanks >-marty > > >
Associated Messages, from the most recent to the oldest:
The hardest part of what you are trying to do is going to be synchronizing WebCat instantaneously with another database system. It simply was not the original intention for WebCat. I too am rooting for
ODBC in a future generation. I'd think either the whole thing needs to be done in WebCat or no WebCat at all for this application -- assuming that you need real time information on room availability to avoid over-booking, conflicts, etc.FoxPro is a great database product that unfortunately no longer was implemented (or ever well implemented) for the Mac, so I stopped developing with it. It is similar to 4D in size of projects it can handle, or even scales larger. It has very different plusses and minusses than 4D though. One huge advantage of FoxPro to a developer is that it is relatively cheap. Once a developer buys a copy of the program, they can compile and distribute how ever many applications to whatever clients they want, with no licensing fees to Microsoft (which explains why they don't market it well). (more analogous to programming in C++ than SQL or 4D). This cost savings is passed on to the customer also. If the programmers are good and design a good index system, it should be pretty darn fast (the difference between a good and bad index system is the difference between seconds and minutes/hours on response times). It should be able to handle in ball park of 200 simultaneous users without too much trouble and databases have grown to Gigs. It can be connected to a SQL backend if client server mode is needed. It has a very mature record locking system to handle multiple people accessing the same data - they can't all write over the same data, reserve same room at same time, etc. You'd have to reinvent this with WebCat. It has fantastic report generators available that make queries, etc. quite easy to write. It allows data crunching to be done at the workstation and error checking done before sending back and saving on server. It isn't client server mode, so has more network traffic. It does require more powerful workstations (ie expensive) than a browser-based system does. Mail Order Manager, a lower-end order fullfillment system, is written in FoxPro, which they tie to Microsoft's e-commerce websolution. Others use cgi's to tie FoxPro directly to the web, as can be done with 4D. FoxPro is an object oriented programming language that has xBase roots in terms of queries, etc. It has very different searching techniques than WebCat. Somecases, the xBase is better, other cases WebCat offers advantages. One example is the Inner and Outer Join problems of querying related tables. An Outer-Join is quite easy with WebCat, but very difficult with earlier versions of FoxPro. But WebCat often requires many nested searches in related tables where as FoxPro would just be doing one search. I think you really need to understand the business needs of this customer, understand the data that needs to be pulled from the system (summary reports, queries by customers, etc.), protection of data in case of server crash, etc. I think the solution will either be all WebCat or all FoxPro (or 4D or someother language) or something with
ODBC to FoxPro. WebCat is a great product. But it isn't the cure-all solution for all web-based systems.Good luck!Sandy >I response to Peter's comments (thx Peter): > > >>2. Is creating a single WebCat solution a better idea than coordinating > >>WebCat and FoxPro databases? > > > >Is it right that the decision for in-house FoxPro is fixed? In this case > >the WebCat solution you mentioned does not eliminate the sync problem, you > >Just to recap, there are two possible scenarios: > >A: In-house agents use the FoxPro solution and I try to keep the in-house >FoxPro database synched up with the on-line WebCat database. > or >B: We scrap the FoxPro database and use ONLY a WebCat database/server >solution which would be accessed via browser for both in-house agents and >outside web surfers. > > >>3. Can a WebCat-based solution handle the speed needs of approx. 40 > >>full-time users (25 in-house, 15 or so on-line)? > > > >What means fulltime? Can you explain this in terms like number of queries > >or hits per minute? > >I do not fear so much for WebCat, it runs still beside a webserver, so >the > >speed is limited and if you optimize performance (even with duplicated >data > >etc.) than it should run. But the 25 in-house users might bring the >machine > >itself into troubles, if they are very active on a 10baseT or 100baseT > >network they can easily lock the server up. Get a fast machine! > >We are estimating a total of about 25 queries a minute, inclusive of all >users. The in-house net is 10baseT - our outside link would be a full T-1. >I guess one of my questions would be, is it faster to have 25 users >searching against a multi-user FoxPro database or can a WebCat/server >solution be as fast? Any database pros care to chime in? (I've seen a >single-user demo of their FoxPro system and was underwhelmed by the >performance but its still in development so its probably too early to >tell.) >Thanks >-marty > > >
Sandra L. Pitner
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