Re: The Guru Speaks-very long reply

This WebDNA talk-list message is from

1998

It keeps the original formatting. numero = 20190
interpreted = N
texte = Great letter Gary!I have been exuberant about WebCat ever since I started using it. The customer support is outstanding. They patiently answer our questions when we can't see through the dust we've created. They add enhancements in a very timely manner if it makes good sense on the list of priorities. My clients think that I can do about anything they want on their website, thanks to WebCat. Other businesses try to force us into their business model, WebCat gives us the tools to do it our way. After years of developing with FoxPro and bumping into Microsoft pricing schemes (last time I priced their e-commerce store it was $15K plus $3K per store, not to mention prices for developer programs, etc.), I find it refreshing to find an open-minded, supportive, creative and hardworking company like Pacific Coast that isn't out gouge us financially at every turn. Different people learn differently, to which I can attest as a mother of 3. Some learn best by reading, others learn by listening, and others learn only by jumping in and getting their hands dirty. The documentation gets you started by reading, the examples get you started getting your hands dirty and now the tape helps those who learn best by verbal instruction. It is a good addition to the arsenal. But the best resource is by far the people on this list who can kick the programming energies into the proper direction when needed and help find that typo that bleary eyes can't see. The only thing missing is a developers conference (a chance to meet and share ideas in person with the characters on this list) in sunny warm San Diego, say mid-winter when we in upstate New York can't remember what a green leaf looks like. ;-)While I will probably never learn to stop asking for more, I'll never stop appreciating what Pacific Coast has already done.Sandy> I will jump in here a little late as a long time customer of webcat...And>this is not an attack on Mooseman. This is for everybody to consider.>About May of 1997...seems like yesterday. From the webstar talk list, Ken>convinced me to jump into the beta process of webcatalog 2.0. At that>point I was a long time user of webcatalog 1.6. Those who forgot about>webcat 1.6 or never used it... Typhoon is robust in comparison. It had>about 5% of the tags we now use everyday. Everything had to be in one>database called catalog.txt. And if I remember right, you had to prepare>the data off line in something like filemaker and export in tab-delim. I>can't remember the append tag in 1.6.>>I think 2.0 went Gold around the middle of the summer of 97. So here we>are 14 months later, give or take a month with a piece of software that>went from a pedal bicycle to a full on formula one race car in an extremely>short period of time. Here we are with a piece of software that does tons>and tons of things more than what a shopping site is supposed to do.>People have made, post-card generators, rumpus inter-action, bar-charts,>hyperboards, random banner ads with click through counters, manage file>systems and directories, triggers and countless other features and>functions that the Pacific Coast never ever dreamed anybody would use this>software for. I remember some comments from Grant in the middle of the>summer of last year....you want to do what with webcatalog? And the list>member went off and did it!>>We as users dream up things and push the envelope daily with this software.>We make repeated feature requests and they respond. Maybe some of us have>become spoiled by some of the stuff that happened over night, two days>later, a week at best.>>A year ago this was a Mac, webstar product. Now is a windows NT and>various brands of server software on that platform. Plus, webten on a Mac>with pixo support to interface with Netcloak, SSI and other things. Then>throw firesite into the mix and Yikes!!!>>This is a company in my eyes, with a fantastic product, that currently>finds themselves spread to thin by all the demands we as users place on>them. Those who use webstar (which I would not trade away and own 6 copies>of), think how fast our problems are solved over there compared to over>here? And I could name many many other software companies who don't hold a>candle to Pacific Coast in meeting customer demands for better software of>fixing bugs.>>OK so the manual is a little thin. Nobdoy every claimed it was robust. I>would hate to write a manual myself for this software. But between the>people on the list and a little common sense and test page here or there>many many people have created some fantastic sites with this software. If>you saw the intranet side of PanaVise, you would be amazed at some of the>things we do. Because I am constantly reminded by my employees, wow that>is cool, how you do that, etc. Webcataolg makes me look like some sort of>magician. How long was webstar 2.1 out before we saw 2.1.1?>>Ken always preached to new users, start off small, read the docs twice,>play with the examples, print the examples out then compare them to the>docs so you understand the logic. Then copy the examples and modify them>to your needs as a starting point. Very very sound advise.>>Now regarding the Tape, with the help of a third party. They have given you>an option to better understand the software if you need it. You don't have>to buy it. Nobody is twisting your arm. And I have coded this stuff on 5>running copies of webcatalog for a long time. And I am going to purchase>the tapes. Why? Because there will be some minor little trick or tweak>that nobody ever explained, no manual could cover that I will pick-up. I>will see it different then the way it is being explained on the tape>anyway. My mind works different then the persons who is explaining it.>Now you think the manual should be better??? OK maybe yes. But go to your>local Barnes and Nobel Book store or CompUSA and see how many books you>will find on the shelf about MSWord, Photoshop, Pagemaker, etc. Or even>books like the inside tricks of Pagemaker or Photoshop. Why are these>books written. Because the manuals aren't good enough and there is a>market for them. Major Stock Market companies. Bill Gates richest man in>the US and his company can't write a good enough manual??? Now look in the>back of any computer magazine and look at all the ads for video tape>training covering all the same software as listed above. Whole companies>and fortunes are made every day by making training tapes for these major>players in the software industry. So please don't bust PCS's chops for>helping make this tape. Applaud them for it. Come to think about it I even>think microsoft owns a publishing company that sells books and tapes on>their own software. Why wasn't it in the box when I upgraded to the latest>word or excel? Bill Gates could easily afford it!>>The question about Perl scripts and webcatalog examples...>>My understanding of perl is it is a free software package supported by end>users. And there are many many sites out there who give advice and store>examples of perl scripts. If you are a Mac person there was a site call>www.scripting.com (I have no idea if it still is around) that stored>samples of apple scripts. We as users of webcatalog (looking in the mirror>as I say this), are guilty of not providing our packages up to the the ftp>section of PCS's site for others to download. Maybe we should create a>small committee of users who have the time and the engery to gather samples>and take over this task. Because I will tell you Jay, John and Grant and>whomever at PCS are smart enough business people to understand the value of>this to their company. They made the space available and we did not take>advantage of it as users by providing our samples and packaages. And if>they had the budget to hire the people to do it, it would be done from>their end also. It would be a great marketing tool. But a smaller>software company like PCS and the Budget they must operate under, there are>only so many resources available to them. And I think they have used them>to respond to customer requested features in the product. For me that is>the best way they could deploy those resources. Because it makes the sites>I work on that much more exciting. But for you newbies, maybe it's high>time some us old farts to webcatalog gave something back. Any takers on the>list to do this?>>Bottom line cut these people some slack! There busting their butts for us!>>Before I get off my soap box, I just want to thank all the people at PCS>for making a fantastic product that is way more then I ever expected in May>of 97. And I want to thank all the list member who over the last 18>months, have helped me from time to time make the sites I work on that much>better then I ever dreamed they could be when they first opened.>>===============================================>Gary Richter> PanaVise Products, Inc.> 7540 Colbert Dr. Reno, Nevada 89511> Ph: 702.850.2900 Fx: 702.850.2929> Email: grichter@panavise.com> http://www.panavise.com>===============================================>>>>>>>I would appreciate the CEO of Pacific Coast responding to this:>>>>>>We, who have purchased WebCat got a manual. To be quite candid, as>>>my 8 year old says about nearly everything unpleasant.... it sucks.>>>>>>Sucks except for some basics.>>>>>>We all need examples, snipplets and work arounds to make our projects fly.>>>.>>>I feel it is Pacific Coast's duty to document as much as they can. And now>>>that Pacific Coast has obviously spent the time to make a video.... now we>>>are asked>>>to cough up another $600 to watch what I bet should have been included in the>>>manual.>>>>>>Just an observation.>>>>>>I have used Perl for 3 years now and the are thousands of sniplets out>>>there to>>>use, modify and gain experience from.>>>>>>Perl scripts can be purchased ready to go; and if you take the price of>>>WebCat and>>>now the video, you could buy almost every canned CGI that would do>>>everything>>>WEBCAT programmers are trying to do now (incuding the price of a LINUX box)>>>and save them HUGE time !>>>>>>Instead, of trying to use Perl of course, we have seen the promise and>>>capability of>>>WebCat, only thing is when the manual don't do it, we write to the list or>>>hire someone>>>at $100 bucks an hour to write a sniplet that PERL programmers give away>>>free.>>>>>>Seems to me Pacific Coast should spend the time on examples, code>>>sniplets and>>>canned projects rather than selling us the manual TWICE... once in print and>>>the other on 24 hours of videos.>>>>>>Think of me as a friend with constructive criticism, rather than a flamer.>>>>>>Appeciate it.>>>>>>Mooseman> Associated Messages, from the most recent to the oldest:

Re: The Guru Speaks-very long reply (RH Prouty 1998)
Re: The Guru Speaks-very long reply (Ejaz Syed 1998)
RE: The Guru Speaks-very long reply (Olin 1998)
Re: The Guru Speaks-very long reply (Sandra L. Pitner 1998)
Re: The Guru Speaks-very long reply (Gary Richter 1998)

Great letter Gary!I have been exuberant about WebCat ever since I started using it. The customer support is outstanding. They patiently answer our questions when we can't see through the dust we've created. They add enhancements in a very timely manner if it makes good sense on the list of priorities. My clients think that I can do about anything they want on their website, thanks to WebCat. Other businesses try to force us into their business model, WebCat gives us the tools to do it our way. After years of developing with FoxPro and bumping into Microsoft pricing schemes (last time I priced their e-commerce store it was $15K plus $3K per store, not to mention prices for developer programs, etc.), I find it refreshing to find an open-minded, supportive, creative and hardworking company like Pacific Coast that isn't out gouge us financially at every turn. Different people learn differently, to which I can attest as a mother of 3. Some learn best by reading, others learn by listening, and others learn only by jumping in and getting their hands dirty. The documentation gets you started by reading, the examples get you started getting your hands dirty and now the tape helps those who learn best by verbal instruction. It is a good addition to the arsenal. But the best resource is by far the people on this list who can kick the programming energies into the proper direction when needed and help find that typo that bleary eyes can't see. The only thing missing is a developers conference (a chance to meet and share ideas in person with the characters on this list) in sunny warm San Diego, say mid-winter when we in upstate New York can't remember what a green leaf looks like. ;-)While I will probably never learn to stop asking for more, I'll never stop appreciating what Pacific Coast has already done.Sandy> I will jump in here a little late as a long time customer of webcat...And>this is not an attack on Mooseman. This is for everybody to consider.>About May of 1997...seems like yesterday. From the webstar Talk List, Ken>convinced me to jump into the beta process of webcatalog 2.0. At that>point I was a long time user of webcatalog 1.6. Those who forgot about>webcat 1.6 or never used it... Typhoon is robust in comparison. It had>about 5% of the tags we now use everyday. Everything had to be in one>database called catalog.txt. And if I remember right, you had to prepare>the data off line in something like filemaker and export in tab-delim. I>can't remember the append tag in 1.6.>>I think 2.0 went Gold around the middle of the summer of 97. So here we>are 14 months later, give or take a month with a piece of software that>went from a pedal bicycle to a full on formula one race car in an extremely>short period of time. Here we are with a piece of software that does tons>and tons of things more than what a shopping site is supposed to do.>People have made, post-card generators, rumpus inter-action, bar-charts,>hyperboards, random banner ads with click through counters, manage file>systems and directories, triggers and countless other features and>functions that the Pacific Coast never ever dreamed anybody would use this>software for. I remember some comments from Grant in the middle of the>summer of last year....you want to do what with webcatalog? And the list>member went off and did it!>>We as users dream up things and push the envelope daily with this software.>We make repeated feature requests and they respond. Maybe some of us have>become spoiled by some of the stuff that happened over night, two days>later, a week at best.>>A year ago this was a Mac, webstar product. Now is a windows NT and>various brands of server software on that platform. Plus, webten on a Mac>with pixo support to interface with Netcloak, SSI and other things. Then>throw firesite into the mix and Yikes!!!>>This is a company in my eyes, with a fantastic product, that currently>finds themselves spread to thin by all the demands we as users place on>them. Those who use webstar (which I would not trade away and own 6 copies>of), think how fast our problems are solved over there compared to over>here? And I could name many many other software companies who don't hold a>candle to Pacific Coast in meeting customer demands for better software of>fixing bugs.>>OK so the manual is a little thin. Nobdoy every claimed it was robust. I>would hate to write a manual myself for this software. But between the>people on the list and a little common sense and test page here or there>many many people have created some fantastic sites with this software. If>you saw the intranet side of PanaVise, you would be amazed at some of the>things we do. Because I am constantly reminded by my employees, wow that>is cool, how you do that, etc. Webcataolg makes me look like some sort of>magician. How long was webstar 2.1 out before we saw 2.1.1?>>Ken always preached to new users, start off small, read the docs twice,>play with the examples, print the examples out then compare them to the>docs so you understand the logic. Then copy the examples and modify them>to your needs as a starting point. Very very sound advise.>>Now regarding the Tape, with the help of a third party. They have given you>an option to better understand the software if you need it. You don't have>to buy it. Nobody is twisting your arm. And I have coded this stuff on 5>running copies of webcatalog for a long time. And I am going to purchase>the tapes. Why? Because there will be some minor little trick or tweak>that nobody ever explained, no manual could cover that I will pick-up. I>will see it different then the way it is being explained on the tape>anyway. My mind works different then the persons who is explaining it.>Now you think the manual should be better??? OK maybe yes. But go to your>local Barnes and Nobel Book store or CompUSA and see how many books you>will find on the shelf about MSWord, Photoshop, Pagemaker, etc. Or even>books like the inside tricks of Pagemaker or Photoshop. Why are these>books written. Because the manuals aren't good enough and there is a>market for them. Major Stock Market companies. Bill Gates richest man in>the US and his company can't write a good enough manual??? Now look in the>back of any computer magazine and look at all the ads for video tape>training covering all the same software as listed above. Whole companies>and fortunes are made every day by making training tapes for these major>players in the software industry. So please don't bust PCS's chops for>helping make this tape. Applaud them for it. Come to think about it I even>think microsoft owns a publishing company that sells books and tapes on>their own software. Why wasn't it in the box when I upgraded to the latest>word or excel? Bill Gates could easily afford it!>>The question about Perl scripts and webcatalog examples...>>My understanding of perl is it is a free software package supported by end>users. And there are many many sites out there who give advice and store>examples of perl scripts. If you are a Mac person there was a site call>www.scripting.com (I have no idea if it still is around) that stored>samples of apple scripts. We as users of webcatalog (looking in the mirror>as I say this), are guilty of not providing our packages up to the the ftp>section of PCS's site for others to download. Maybe we should create a>small committee of users who have the time and the engery to gather samples>and take over this task. Because I will tell you Jay, John and Grant and>whomever at PCS are smart enough business people to understand the value of>this to their company. They made the space available and we did not take>advantage of it as users by providing our samples and packaages. And if>they had the budget to hire the people to do it, it would be done from>their end also. It would be a great marketing tool. But a smaller>software company like PCS and the Budget they must operate under, there are>only so many resources available to them. And I think they have used them>to respond to customer requested features in the product. For me that is>the best way they could deploy those resources. Because it makes the sites>I work on that much more exciting. But for you newbies, maybe it's high>time some us old farts to webcatalog gave something back. Any takers on the>list to do this?>>Bottom line cut these people some slack! There busting their butts for us!>>Before I get off my soap box, I just want to thank all the people at PCS>for making a fantastic product that is way more then I ever expected in May>of 97. And I want to thank all the list member who over the last 18>months, have helped me from time to time make the sites I work on that much>better then I ever dreamed they could be when they first opened.>>===============================================>Gary Richter> PanaVise Products, Inc.> 7540 Colbert Dr. Reno, Nevada 89511> Ph: 702.850.2900 Fx: 702.850.2929> Email: grichter@panavise.com> http://www.panavise.com>===============================================>>>>>>>I would appreciate the CEO of Pacific Coast responding to this:>>>>>>We, who have purchased WebCat got a manual. To be quite candid, as>>>my 8 year old says about nearly everything unpleasant.... it sucks.>>>>>>Sucks except for some basics.>>>>>>We all need examples, snipplets and work arounds to make our projects fly.>>>.>>>I feel it is Pacific Coast's duty to document as much as they can. And now>>>that Pacific Coast has obviously spent the time to make a video.... now we>>>are asked>>>to cough up another $600 to watch what I bet should have been included in the>>>manual.>>>>>>Just an observation.>>>>>>I have used Perl for 3 years now and the are thousands of sniplets out>>>there to>>>use, modify and gain experience from.>>>>>>Perl scripts can be purchased ready to go; and if you take the price of>>>WebCat and>>>now the video, you could buy almost every canned CGI that would do>>>everything>>>WEBCAT programmers are trying to do now (incuding the price of a LINUX box)>>>and save them HUGE time !>>>>>>Instead, of trying to use Perl of course, we have seen the promise and>>>capability of>>>WebCat, only thing is when the manual don't do it, we write to the list or>>>hire someone>>>at $100 bucks an hour to write a sniplet that PERL programmers give away>>>free.>>>>>>Seems to me Pacific Coast should spend the time on examples, code>>>sniplets and>>>canned projects rather than selling us the manual TWICE... once in print and>>>the other on 24 hours of videos.>>>>>>Think of me as a friend with constructive criticism, rather than a flamer.>>>>>>Appeciate it.>>>>>>Mooseman> Sandra L. Pitner

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Re: The Guru Speaks-very long reply

1998

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