Re: [WebDNA] a major shift in strategy?
This WebDNA talk-list message is from 2008
It keeps the original formatting.
numero = 101135
interpreted = N
texte = Hello Bob! WebDNA is alive now and i want you to know we are addressing addressing all the issues, one by one. We cannot go faster because it is not like fixing small chunks of C++ code that we wrote ourselves. Behind WebDNA engine is a huge amount of great ideas and things has to be done right. Most of those who switched from WebDNA to PHP have had to hire a php coder(s) to rewrite their work. This is the point: designers and webmasters must rely on programmers. Using WebDNA, they don't. Cost is now a crucial matter; who says "easier" also says "less expensive" and more competitive. WebDNA vs. php shows two different philosophies: php programmers will tell you they actually *think* OOP, but I know many designers who have been able to write their first WebDNA applications in days or weeks and have never been able to learn the highly technical php language, because web designers and webmasters think sequentially. To quote Patrick McCormick, "[html language] seems to always be sequential, where the benefits of an object oriented scripting environment have no meaning or usefulness. You just need a quick way to hack text mercilessly. That where WebDNA excels. It is the final hack on everything emitted from the server, and those hacks can be as sophisticated or interative as any user could ever want or need." Also, WebDNA is not just as a scripting language: it is a very powerful database that by itself could be a standalone application, all using the same simple syntax. A small 10MB engine easily replaces php and a MySQL server. There is nothing that can be compared to it. Now, think of PHP as a 10 years continuous-development engine, with support of millions... and still with this, i would not replace my 2004 WebDNA engine with PHP, and none of us would, otherwise we would not be on this list anymore: this shows how ahead of time WebDNA was, and still is: is there anything that can be done with php5 that could not be done with the 2004 WebDNA engine? you would have to look hard to find something. Soon, we will catch up with platforms, processors and small bugs and we will give WebDNA the place it deserves. No doubt about this, and i do not think it is worthwhile to keep shooting at us because "things do not go fast enough". For Govinda, here is a simple exemple of WebDNA code vs. php one (i quote Steve Dannaway) [search db=domains.db&neSKUdata=find_all&asSKUsort=1] [founditems] [SKU] [SITE] [TITLE] [GRAPHIC] [/founditems] [/search] as opposed to: "; # select the database $rs= @mysql_select_db("domains", $conn) or die("Cannot locate database"); # create query $sql="select SKU,SITE,TITLE,GRAPHIC from main ORDER BY SKU"; # execute query $rs=mysql_query($sql,$conn); ?> Thank you to all of you who support us, specially our investors. The future belongs to those who know how to "think different". Was it Apple? or Google? ;-) chris On Oct 13, 2008, at 4:05, Bob Minor wrote: > Yes, that argument is definitely not debunked. PHP is free, there > are tons of programmers doing it, tons of books on how to do it, > LOTS and LOTS of solutions and the community is as robust as any. > You can get free frameworks that make development organized and > easy. This will be a major hurdle for webdna. As I said earlier the > ease of use, or use by designers etc is a better angle. C++, > Javascript Java programmers will find working with php a snap. In > fact when I show them webdna, they attack its language structure > right out of the gate, they talk about how it is too linear and not > very object oriented. > > That said I still use it because of its ease of use, I know it and I > already own several copies. We started going to PHP when it looked > like WebDNA was going to die. Now some of those projects conversions > are being staved off while we wait to see how the project goes. In > my mind 2 things need to happen right off. Updates for stability and > for use on the latest hardware and systems. ie Leopard and Windows > 7,20008 centos or whetever else they want to call it. Also running > on 64bit is comes next. After that better myysql and new features > can be delt with. This seems extremely clear. > > Good Luck to the developers > On Oct 13, 2008, at 12:39 AM, Kenneth Grome wrote: > >>> The fact is that we've pretty much nullified >>> the "PHP is free" argument. >> >> In my opinion you haven't nullified anything. >> >> In fact, it seems to me that you're choosing to ignore the >> *perception* that exists in the real world -- or you're >> dismissing it without considering its ramifications -- and >> I cannot understand why you're doing this, so let me ask: >> >> How are you going to get a reasonable number of people to >> try WebDNA when it does not run on hardly any of today's >> up-to-date server platforms, hardly anyone has ever heard >> of it, trained programmers are few and far between, there >> is a pathetic absence of pre-coded solutions available for >> it, and it is clearly not free of licensing fees? >> --------------------------------------------------------- >> This message is sent to you because you are subscribed to >> the mailing list
. >> To unsubscribe, E-mail to: >> archives: http://mail.webdna.us/list/talk@webdna.us >> old archives: http://dev.webdna.us/TalkListArchive/ > > Robert Minor > Director of Internet Services > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Cybermill Communications > http://www.cybermill.com http://www.merchantmaker.com > > Providing Ecommerce and interactive website development and > hosting services on Macintosh, Windows NT, *nix, and AS/400. > > Complete ddos proof hosting solutions and network services. > > --------------------------------------------------------- > This message is sent to you because you are subscribed to > the mailing list . > To unsubscribe, E-mail to: > archives: http://mail.webdna.us/list/talk@webdna.us > old archives: http://dev.webdna.us/TalkListArchive/
Associated Messages, from the most recent to the oldest:
Hello Bob! WebDNA is alive now and i want you to know we are addressing addressing all the issues, one by one. We cannot go faster because it is not like fixing small chunks of C++ code that we wrote ourselves. Behind WebDNA engine is a huge amount of great ideas and things has to be done right. Most of those who switched from WebDNA to PHP have had to hire a php coder(s) to rewrite their work. This is the point: designers and webmasters must rely on programmers. Using WebDNA, they don't. Cost is now a crucial matter; who says "easier" also says "less expensive" and more competitive. WebDNA vs. php shows two different philosophies: php programmers will tell you they actually *think* OOP, but I know many designers who have been able to write their first WebDNA applications in days or weeks and have never been able to learn the highly technical php language, because web designers and webmasters think sequentially. To quote Patrick McCormick, "[html language] seems to always be sequential, where the benefits of an object oriented scripting environment have no meaning or usefulness. You just need a quick way to hack text mercilessly. That where WebDNA excels. It is the final hack on everything emitted from the server, and those hacks can be as sophisticated or interative as any user could ever want or need." Also, WebDNA is not just as a scripting language: it is a very powerful database that by itself could be a standalone application, all using the same simple syntax. A small 10MB engine easily replaces php and a MySQL server. There is nothing that can be compared to it. Now, think of PHP as a 10 years continuous-development engine, with support of millions... and still with this, i would not replace my 2004 WebDNA engine with PHP, and none of us would, otherwise we would not be on this list anymore: this shows how ahead of time WebDNA was, and still is: is there anything that can be done with php5 that could not be done with the 2004 WebDNA engine? you would have to look hard to find something. Soon, we will catch up with platforms, processors and small bugs and we will give WebDNA the place it deserves. No doubt about this, and i do not think it is worthwhile to keep shooting at us because "things do not go fast enough". For Govinda, here is a simple exemple of WebDNA code vs. php one (i quote Steve Dannaway) [search db=domains.db&neSKUdata=find_all&asSKUsort=1] [founditems] [SKU] [SITE] [TITLE] [GRAPHIC] [/founditems] [/search] as opposed to: "; # select the database $rs= @mysql_select_db("domains", $conn) or die("Cannot locate database"); # create query $sql="select SKU,SITE,TITLE,GRAPHIC from main ORDER BY SKU"; # execute query $rs=mysql_query($sql,$conn); ?> Thank you to all of you who support us, specially our investors. The future belongs to those who know how to "think different". Was it Apple? or Google? ;-) chris On Oct 13, 2008, at 4:05, Bob Minor wrote: > Yes, that argument is definitely not debunked. PHP is free, there > are tons of programmers doing it, tons of books on how to do it, > LOTS and LOTS of solutions and the community is as robust as any. > You can get free frameworks that make development organized and > easy. This will be a major hurdle for webdna. As I said earlier the > ease of use, or use by designers etc is a better angle. C++, > Javascript Java programmers will find working with php a snap. In > fact when I show them webdna, they attack its language structure > right out of the gate, they talk about how it is too linear and not > very object oriented. > > That said I still use it because of its ease of use, I know it and I > already own several copies. We started going to PHP when it looked > like WebDNA was going to die. Now some of those projects conversions > are being staved off while we wait to see how the project goes. In > my mind 2 things need to happen right off. Updates for stability and > for use on the latest hardware and systems. ie Leopard and Windows > 7,20008 centos or whetever else they want to call it. Also running > on 64bit is comes next. After that better myysql and new features > can be delt with. This seems extremely clear. > > Good Luck to the developers > On Oct 13, 2008, at 12:39 AM, Kenneth Grome wrote: > >>> The fact is that we've pretty much nullified >>> the "PHP is free" argument. >> >> In my opinion you haven't nullified anything. >> >> In fact, it seems to me that you're choosing to ignore the >> *perception* that exists in the real world -- or you're >> dismissing it without considering its ramifications -- and >> I cannot understand why you're doing this, so let me ask: >> >> How are you going to get a reasonable number of people to >> try WebDNA when it does not run on hardly any of today's >> up-to-date server platforms, hardly anyone has ever heard >> of it, trained programmers are few and far between, there >> is a pathetic absence of pre-coded solutions available for >> it, and it is clearly not free of licensing fees? >> --------------------------------------------------------- >> This message is sent to you because you are subscribed to >> the mailing list . >> To unsubscribe, E-mail to: >> archives: http://mail.webdna.us/list/talk@webdna.us >> old archives: http://dev.webdna.us/TalkListArchive/ > > Robert Minor > Director of Internet Services > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Cybermill Communications > http://www.cybermill.com http://www.merchantmaker.com > > Providing Ecommerce and interactive website development and > hosting services on Macintosh, Windows NT, *nix, and AS/400. > > Complete ddos proof hosting solutions and network services. > > --------------------------------------------------------- > This message is sent to you because you are subscribed to > the mailing list . > To unsubscribe, E-mail to: > archives: http://mail.webdna.us/list/talk@webdna.us > old archives: http://dev.webdna.us/TalkListArchive/
christophe.billiottet@webdna.us
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