[WebDNA] Business Discussions

This WebDNA talk-list message is from

2008

It keeps the original formatting. numero = 101134
interpreted = N
texte = I am happy to honor Donovan's request to stop debating=20certain business issues in this technical support talk=20list -- and therefore I have created a new and separate=20venue for them here:webdna-business-discussions-subscribe@yahoogroups.comIt's a private Yahoo group and there will be no insider=20secrets or other privileged information released here. I=20simply want to keep these business talks going in a place=20where they are welcome, encouraged and appropriate.I'm hoping to discuss topics similar to the 5 posts below my=20signature. If you're interested you can use the link above=20to subscribe to the mailing list only, or you can sign up=20on this page for access to the archives too:http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/webdna-business-discussions/I'll have to approve your posts manually for a while, but=20this is a good way to avoid spammers and other degenerates,=20so don't be surprised if your new posts do not appear=20instantly in the beginning. =20Thanks and best regards.Sincerely,Ken Grome=2D------------------------------------------------------------------------> [WebDNA] WebDNA on LiveCD ...> From: Kenneth Grome > To: talk@webdna.us> Date: Friday 11:28:07 am> =20> Okay here's my concept:>> Create a LiveCD that lets anyone experiment with WebDNA> immediately, simply by booting their desktop or laptop> machines directly from the CD. This means:>> - a super-simple system that needs NO installation> - runs on almost ANY computer with a CD writer> - will NOT change a thing on existing hard drive(s)> - pre-configured with everything ready to use>> Just boot from the CD, open the pre-installed browser and> text editor, and start programming WebDNA. That's all> there is to it!>> A self-contained training and/or development environment> on a single CD ... and yes, all changes will be saved to> the same CD too.>> Opinions anyone?>> Sincerely,> Ken Grome=2D------------------------------------------------------------------------=2D------------------------------------------------------------------------> [WebDNA] a major shift in strategy?> From: "Olin Lagon" > To: talk@webdna.us> Date: Friday 05:20:57 pm> =20> Aloha all, I love WebDNA. Why? Creating, managing,> extending, modifying, searching and editing databases is> about as easy as it gets. It's so easy that most projects> can do just fine without any database administrator. It's> not the scripting language. The scripting language is> decent but definitely not as feature rich or community> supported as other options. I don't think I am alone. I> think there are tons of developers that are interested in> using something even easier than mysql than there are> developers that will switch to a relatively obscure> language. Plus competing with the open source> alternatives is near suicide. Every day you'll see cool> stuff about the other langs. For instance, host a 5> million hits per day site for free in Google's cloud with> the potential to scale your app to any size (python for> now with other langs to follow); handle 25,000> connections at any given time with only 256 threads> (resin running php/java); etc.>> So, anyone got thoughts on the following strategy:>> 1. The pitch could be to dump your database admin. Not> needed. Save the $100K+ per year for trips to Hawaii for> the rest of the team. The system empowers developers with> virtually no database skills to get up to speed pretty> quickly.>> 2. Have a web based interface to completely manage> databases that blows phpmyadmin way out of the water. The> interface should also have a query builder so folks> getting started and build queries visually. This tool> creates, manages, edits, deletes, merges, etc. databases.> Have a sandbox folks can play with online.>> 3. Create a version of the software that essentially runs> the dbserver and is callable via common languages (php,> python, java, ruby, .net, etc.) in ways that is much> easier than traditional calls to a sql based server. Who> cares if they buy the system for the db and not use the> rest of the scripting language!>> This strategy essentially positions webdna as an> alternative, a simple easy to use alternative, to mysql.> The market potential is then massive. Marketing could> have fun with the PC v Mac parodies (mysql v webdna).>> I am not confident continuing on the path of making> webdna better could result in marketplace success. Fixing> bugs and adding features supports the small group still> using the product and in my opinion without marketing> genius and more lady luck than most of us have ever been> graced with, the masses will not come over. However, who> wouldn't want to try out a scrappy piece of software that> promises to empower the developers to wrestle the db> themselves!>> Oh, one last thought. You should be able to get a team> together using odesk.com pretty quickly. I've used a few> contractors found on the site that had tons of experience> with ANSI C code.>> I'm happy to write/help write a completely modern db> admin.>> Laters, Olin=2D------------------------------------------------------------------------=2D------------------------------------------------------------------------> RE: [WebDNA] WebDNA on LiveCD ...> From: Timur Ruban > To: "talk@webdna.us" > Date: Saturday 02:49:31 am> =20> Guys,> Here's my 5 cents. I know we don't participate much in> your discussions on a regular basis but we have done a> number of major projects on WebDNA, have 3 products> developed on it and various web-based systems in at least> two dozen of Fortune 1000 clients - so I would not> consider myself a small fish in your little pond :)>> The only problem with WebDNA I have at this point (aside> of architectural defficiencies that my developers been> rambling for years about) - support on latest versions of> MacOS, Linux, Solaris and Intel. Stability is a concern> too - in last year or two we've seen way more WebDNA> crashes under various functions that noone can explain> then before. I would also love to have better MySQL> integration but that's a separate discussion.>> I was preparing to move away and migrate to PHP (and I> already do have some products that are PHP and perl based> only) but at this point stopped and looking to see what> will happen and how quickly - you do have my support and> faith in you at this point.>> Not sure what this is worth, but figures I"ll add my> voice to the discussion.>> Sorry can't dedicate any time or resources to help with> all of this r&d staff - have economy to fight and world> to take over.>> cheers> tim=2D------------------------------------------------------------------------=2D------------------------------------------------------------------------> RE: [WebDNA] a major shift in strategy?> From: "Meyers, David E." > To: talk@webdna.us> Date: Yesterday 12:12:38 pm> =20> Strategy? Think marketing and business not tech=E2=80=A6>> I have been a WebDNA fan since I bought the original> plug-in for 5 grand over ten years ago. I have no where> near the programming and =E2=80=9Ctech=E2=80=9D ability of those that I> see commenting on the talk lists =E2=80=93 in fact, half of the> talk list comments are greek to me. I continue to> contract out to some true WebDNA experts that have been> with the software for years. I will share the> observations that I shared with Smith Micro =E2=80=93 who I feel> we all agree mismanaged and had little care for> supporting WebDNA.>> As stated by Olin - Creating, managing, extending,> modifying,? searching and editing databases is about as> easy as it gets. Bottom line =E2=80=93 it is VERY simple and VERY> powerful=E2=80=A6 Hell, I=E2=80=99m a designer and I have managed to> create some pretty powerful solutions (even without the> support of my contacted friends).>> In my graduate schools days, I had a genius of a> professor who was extremely successful (and quite> wealthy) =E2=80=93 he did nt have to teach, rather he chose to do> so - he pointed out to students that companies and> products will exist by falling into one of the following> categories =E2=80=93 They will:>> Fail. (or)> Survive. (or)> Thrive.>> WebDNA has survived.>> I have shared this rather controversial position before> privately, but this time I throw it to the public forum> and let you guys think about it.>> WebDNA will never thrive as long as Php and MySQL is> available for free =E2=80=93 and it looks as if this will never> change. If you polled WebDNA users over the years you> will see that MANY have migrated to Php/MySql already. It> has such a wide user base, tremendous support, is free> and is supported by nearly every major hosting company.>> My repeated suggestion =E2=80=93 MAKE WEBDNA FREE and OPEN> SOURCE. It is the only way for WebDNA to thrive. WebDNA> can=E2=80=99t be making any real revenue with the prices at 65> per domain or 499 for unlimited domains? Refocus revenue> generation on DEVELOPED SOLUTIONS, GENERAL SUPPORT and> CUSTOM SOLUTIONS SUPPORT AND PROGRAMMING. The ability to> create custom solutions by all of you high-end> programmers will always be present.>> This could potentially increase the install base at> hosting companies on a massive scale =E2=80=93 how many times> have we seen people simply looking for a hosting company> for WebDNA solutions? This in turn would lead to more> exposure, availability and users.>> There is currently tons of revenue being generated by> solidly programmed php solutions. In fact, if research> were to be done across-the-board, you would see that well> programmed and intuitively designed php solutions are> being sold for more that the current cost of WebDNA?>> It must gain a much wider base or it will always remain a> cool technology with a small and specialized following =E2=80=93> and it will simply survive.>> I believe Olin=E2=80=99s comments about the interface tool and> positioning vs php/mySQL is sharp and on target=E2=80=A6>> Please understand =E2=80=93 I believe in WebDNA and I truly> believe it can catch fire if =E2=80=9Cmarketed=E2=80=9D correctly. Sorry> if I stirred the bee hive=E2=80=A6>> Aloha, Davo (by way of Kauai, Savannah and now> Louisville)=2D------------------------------------------------------------------------=2D------------------------------------------------------------------------> Re: [WebDNA] a major shift in strategy?> From: Bob Minor > To: talk@webdna.us> Date: Today 02:05:26 pm> =C2=A0> Yes, that argument is definitely not debunked. PHP is> free, there are =C2=A0 tons of programmers doing it, tons of> books on how to do it, LOTS and LOTS of solutions and the> community is as robust as any. =C2=A0You can get free> frameworks that make development organized and easy. This> will be a major hurdle for webdna. As I said earlier the> ease of use, or use by designers etc is a better angle.> C++, Javascript Java programmers will find working with> php a snap. In fact when I show them webdna, they attack> its language structure right out of the gate, they talk> about how it is too linear and not very object oriented.>> That said I still use it because of its ease of use, I> know it and I =C2=A0 already own several copies. We started> going to PHP when it looked like WebDNA was going to die.> Now some of those projects conversions are being staved> off while we wait to see how the project goes. In my mind> 2 things need to happen right off. Updates for stability> and for use on the latest hardware and systems. ie> Leopard and Windows 7,20008 centos or whetever else they> want to call it. Also running on 64bit is comes next.> After that better myysql and new features can be delt> with. =C2=A0This seems extremely clear.>> Good Luck to the developers>> Robert Minor> Director of Internet Services=2D------------------------------------------------------------------------ Associated Messages, from the most recent to the oldest:

[WebDNA] Business Discussions (Kenneth Grome 2008)

I am happy to honor Donovan's request to stop debating=20certain business issues in this technical support talk=20list -- and therefore I have created a new and separate=20venue for them here:webdna-business-discussions-subscribe@yahoogroups.comIt's a private Yahoo group and there will be no insider=20secrets or other privileged information released here. I=20simply want to keep these business talks going in a place=20where they are welcome, encouraged and appropriate.I'm hoping to discuss topics similar to the 5 posts below my=20signature. If you're interested you can use the link above=20to subscribe to the mailing list only, or you can sign up=20on this page for access to the archives too:http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/webdna-business-discussions/I'll have to approve your posts manually for a while, but=20this is a good way to avoid spammers and other degenerates,=20so don't be surprised if your new posts do not appear=20instantly in the beginning. =20Thanks and best regards.Sincerely,Ken Grome=2D------------------------------------------------------------------------> [WebDNA] WebDNA on LiveCD ...> From: Kenneth Grome > To: talk@webdna.us> Date: Friday 11:28:07 am> =20> Okay here's my concept:>> Create a LiveCD that lets anyone experiment with WebDNA> immediately, simply by booting their desktop or laptop> machines directly from the CD. This means:>> - a super-simple system that needs NO installation> - runs on almost ANY computer with a CD writer> - will NOT change a thing on existing hard drive(s)> - pre-configured with everything ready to use>> Just boot from the CD, open the pre-installed browser and> text editor, and start programming WebDNA. That's all> there is to it!>> A self-contained training and/or development environment> on a single CD ... and yes, all changes will be saved to> the same CD too.>> Opinions anyone?>> Sincerely,> Ken Grome=2D------------------------------------------------------------------------=2D------------------------------------------------------------------------> [WebDNA] a major shift in strategy?> From: "Olin Lagon" > To: talk@webdna.us> Date: Friday 05:20:57 pm> =20> Aloha all, I love WebDNA. Why? Creating, managing,> extending, modifying, searching and editing databases is> about as easy as it gets. It's so easy that most projects> can do just fine without any database administrator. It's> not the scripting language. The scripting language is> decent but definitely not as feature rich or community> supported as other options. I don't think I am alone. I> think there are tons of developers that are interested in> using something even easier than mysql than there are> developers that will switch to a relatively obscure> language. Plus competing with the open source> alternatives is near suicide. Every day you'll see cool> stuff about the other langs. For instance, host a 5> million hits per day site for free in Google's cloud with> the potential to scale your app to any size (python for> now with other langs to follow); handle 25,000> connections at any given time with only 256 threads> (resin running php/java); etc.>> So, anyone got thoughts on the following strategy:>> 1. The pitch could be to dump your database admin. Not> needed. Save the $100K+ per year for trips to Hawaii for> the rest of the team. The system empowers developers with> virtually no database skills to get up to speed pretty> quickly.>> 2. Have a web based interface to completely manage> databases that blows phpmyadmin way out of the water. The> interface should also have a query builder so folks> getting started and build queries visually. This tool> creates, manages, edits, deletes, merges, etc. databases.> Have a sandbox folks can play with online.>> 3. Create a version of the software that essentially runs> the dbserver and is callable via common languages (php,> python, java, ruby, .net, etc.) in ways that is much> easier than traditional calls to a sql based server. Who> cares if they buy the system for the db and not use the> rest of the scripting language!>> This strategy essentially positions webdna as an> alternative, a simple easy to use alternative, to mysql.> The market potential is then massive. Marketing could> have fun with the PC v Mac parodies (mysql v webdna).>> I am not confident continuing on the path of making> webdna better could result in marketplace success. Fixing> bugs and adding features supports the small group still> using the product and in my opinion without marketing> genius and more lady luck than most of us have ever been> graced with, the masses will not come over. However, who> wouldn't want to try out a scrappy piece of software that> promises to empower the developers to wrestle the db> themselves!>> Oh, one last thought. You should be able to get a team> together using odesk.com pretty quickly. I've used a few> contractors found on the site that had tons of experience> with ANSI C code.>> I'm happy to write/help write a completely modern db> admin.>> Laters, Olin=2D------------------------------------------------------------------------=2D------------------------------------------------------------------------> RE: [WebDNA] WebDNA on LiveCD ...> From: Timur Ruban > To: "talk@webdna.us" > Date: Saturday 02:49:31 am> =20> Guys,> Here's my 5 cents. I know we don't participate much in> your discussions on a regular basis but we have done a> number of major projects on WebDNA, have 3 products> developed on it and various web-based systems in at least> two dozen of Fortune 1000 clients - so I would not> consider myself a small fish in your little pond :)>> The only problem with WebDNA I have at this point (aside> of architectural defficiencies that my developers been> rambling for years about) - support on latest versions of> MacOS, Linux, Solaris and Intel. Stability is a concern> too - in last year or two we've seen way more WebDNA> crashes under various functions that noone can explain> then before. I would also love to have better MySQL> integration but that's a separate discussion.>> I was preparing to move away and migrate to PHP (and I> already do have some products that are PHP and perl based> only) but at this point stopped and looking to see what> will happen and how quickly - you do have my support and> faith in you at this point.>> Not sure what this is worth, but figures I"ll add my> voice to the discussion.>> Sorry can't dedicate any time or resources to help with> all of this r&d staff - have economy to fight and world> to take over.>> cheers> tim=2D------------------------------------------------------------------------=2D------------------------------------------------------------------------> RE: [WebDNA] a major shift in strategy?> From: "Meyers, David E." > To: talk@webdna.us> Date: Yesterday 12:12:38 pm> =20> Strategy? Think marketing and business not tech=E2=80=A6>> I have been a WebDNA fan since I bought the original> plug-in for 5 grand over ten years ago. I have no where> near the programming and =E2=80=9Ctech=E2=80=9D ability of those that I> see commenting on the Talk Lists =E2=80=93 in fact, half of the> Talk List comments are greek to me. I continue to> contract out to some true WebDNA experts that have been> with the software for years. I will share the> observations that I shared with Smith Micro =E2=80=93 who I feel> we all agree mismanaged and had little care for> supporting WebDNA.>> As stated by Olin - Creating, managing, extending,> modifying,? searching and editing databases is about as> easy as it gets. Bottom line =E2=80=93 it is VERY simple and VERY> powerful=E2=80=A6 Hell, I=E2=80=99m a designer and I have managed to> create some pretty powerful solutions (even without the> support of my contacted friends).>> In my graduate schools days, I had a genius of a> professor who was extremely successful (and quite> wealthy) =E2=80=93 he did nt have to teach, rather he chose to do> so - he pointed out to students that companies and> products will exist by falling into one of the following> categories =E2=80=93 They will:>> Fail. (or)> Survive. (or)> Thrive.>> WebDNA has survived.>> I have shared this rather controversial position before> privately, but this time I throw it to the public forum> and let you guys think about it.>> WebDNA will never thrive as long as Php and MySQL is> available for free =E2=80=93 and it looks as if this will never> change. If you polled WebDNA users over the years you> will see that MANY have migrated to Php/MySql already. It> has such a wide user base, tremendous support, is free> and is supported by nearly every major hosting company.>> My repeated suggestion =E2=80=93 MAKE WEBDNA FREE and OPEN> SOURCE. It is the only way for WebDNA to thrive. WebDNA> can=E2=80=99t be making any real revenue with the prices at 65> per domain or 499 for unlimited domains? Refocus revenue> generation on DEVELOPED SOLUTIONS, GENERAL SUPPORT and> CUSTOM SOLUTIONS SUPPORT AND PROGRAMMING. The ability to> create custom solutions by all of you high-end> programmers will always be present.>> This could potentially increase the install base at> hosting companies on a massive scale =E2=80=93 how many times> have we seen people simply looking for a hosting company> for WebDNA solutions? This in turn would lead to more> exposure, availability and users.>> There is currently tons of revenue being generated by> solidly programmed php solutions. In fact, if research> were to be done across-the-board, you would see that well> programmed and intuitively designed php solutions are> being sold for more that the current cost of WebDNA?>> It must gain a much wider base or it will always remain a> cool technology with a small and specialized following =E2=80=93> and it will simply survive.>> I believe Olin=E2=80=99s comments about the interface tool and> positioning vs php/mySQL is sharp and on target=E2=80=A6>> Please understand =E2=80=93 I believe in WebDNA and I truly> believe it can catch fire if =E2=80=9Cmarketed=E2=80=9D correctly. Sorry> if I stirred the bee hive=E2=80=A6>> Aloha, Davo (by way of Kauai, Savannah and now> Louisville)=2D------------------------------------------------------------------------=2D------------------------------------------------------------------------> Re: [WebDNA] a major shift in strategy?> From: Bob Minor > To: talk@webdna.us> Date: Today 02:05:26 pm> =C2=A0> Yes, that argument is definitely not debunked. PHP is> free, there are =C2=A0 tons of programmers doing it, tons of> books on how to do it, LOTS and LOTS of solutions and the> community is as robust as any. =C2=A0You can get free> frameworks that make development organized and easy. This> will be a major hurdle for webdna. As I said earlier the> ease of use, or use by designers etc is a better angle.> C++, Javascript Java programmers will find working with> php a snap. In fact when I show them webdna, they attack> its language structure right out of the gate, they talk> about how it is too linear and not very object oriented.>> That said I still use it because of its ease of use, I> know it and I =C2=A0 already own several copies. We started> going to PHP when it looked like WebDNA was going to die.> Now some of those projects conversions are being staved> off while we wait to see how the project goes. In my mind> 2 things need to happen right off. Updates for stability> and for use on the latest hardware and systems. ie> Leopard and Windows 7,20008 centos or whetever else they> want to call it. Also running on 64bit is comes next.> After that better myysql and new features can be delt> with. =C2=A0This seems extremely clear.>> Good Luck to the developers>> Robert Minor> Director of Internet Services=2D------------------------------------------------------------------------ Kenneth Grome

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[WebDNA] Business Discussions

2008

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