Re: 2002 08 15 chat, reformatted

This WebDNA talk-list message is from

2002

It keeps the original formatting. numero = 42609
interpreted = N
texte = Thanks.On 8/16/02 12:12 AM, Ben Swihart wrote:> I found the chat transcript to be impossible to read.. Not sure if> anyone else experienced that. Here's a reformatted version. You can> also get this on the web:> http://gotricities.net/webdna/webDNAchat20020815.txt> > sal> I would like to say thank you to all of you for participating> sal> in this first WebDNA Chat Session. Before we begin, I would like to> > sal> introduce the members of the SMSI Team.> sal> Doug Deck-Sales and Marketing Director.> sal> Philip BoneSteele-Director of E-Business Products and Services> sal> Scott Anderson-Senior WebDNA Engineer Steve Contreras-Senior> sal> Software Engineer/Architect Brian Looper-Project Manager> sal> And I am Salvatore D'Anna. I will be the moderator today> sal> I would like to thank all of you for attending.> sal> The main purpose of this chat is to give you the opportunity to> sal> update you on what we are planning and to get your feedback and> sal> participation throughout this process. Here is the procedure for> this > sal> chat session. I will outline for you my vision for the WebDNA> Resource > sal> Center. When I am finished, Doug Deck will outline our Partnership> sal> Program. Finally, it will be your turn to ask questions. The> questions > sal> will be asked in aphabetical order by username. I will ask the user> one > sal> by one if they have any questions.> sal> Let's begin:> sal> Concept: The Proof is in the DNA WebDNA WebDNA Resource Center> sal> There are two main purposes for the WebDNA Resource Center The> sal> first is to increase awareness in the IT Industry, mainly the> sal> Network Administrators who will have to maintain the servers.> sal> Currently, they are more inclined to stick with what they know.> sal> The second is to increase our Developer Community by providing> sal> information that will convince other developers that WebDNA is a> sal> faster and better solution in the long run.> sal> Network Administrators and Developers both have a common goal which> > sal> can be defined in three letters ROI This WebDNA Resource Center's> > sal> main purpose is to prove to everyone that nothing can beat WebDNA> when > sal> it comes to their Return on Investment. I have compiled a list of> items > sal> that I think are crucial for the WebDNA Resource Center Main> Sections of site:> sal> Forums-This has been provided by The Pubb> sal> Application Showcase including Demos> sal> Web Ring> sal> Certified Partners> sal> White Papers> sal> News and Events> sal> Products> sal> Downloads> sal> Home Page should have the following updated articles:> sal> Getting Started Guide> sal> WebDNA Best Practices> sal> From Simple to Complex-The WebDNa Tutorials> sal> The Power of WebDNA Applications> sal> Data Management in WebDNA> sal> XML Tags in WebDNA> sal> Sample Apps> sal> We will also need to provide the following:> sal> White Papers> sal> Product Evaluation Guide> sal> ROI Guide> sal> Multiple How To's> sal> Case Studies> sal> and WebDNA Upgrade Path> sal> As you can see, there is a lot of work to be done which will> sal> benefit all of us in the long run. I will need your participation> sal> throughout this process and look forward to working with all of> sal> you to make this a reality.> sal> I will now turn the forum over to Doug Deck to describe the WebDNA> sal> Partner Program.> > [DougDeck] There are two main parts to the Partner Program> [DougDeck] WebDNA Dev I members receive a 25% discount on all SMSI> products. > [DougDeck] The requirements are that the member post to the forum,> [DougDeck] participate in our webring, and must have at purchased at the> > [DougDeck] minimum 1 license from SMSI [DougDeck] WebDNA Dev II members> [DougDeck] receive a 30% discount on all SMSI products. They will have> [DougDeck] access to training materials and will receive leads from SMSI> > [DougDeck] for consulting work. They will be required to be Certified> by > [DougDeck] SMSI and will have a yet to be determined minimum license> purchases > [DougDeck] per year. They will also participate in the forums and> provide demo > [DougDeck] applications as well. [DougDeck] Dev I and Dev II are> placeholder > [DougDeck] names- suggest others if you want. [DougDeck] Once all of> this is > [DougDeck] formalized, I will send anyone interested an Application for> [DougDeck] either level.> > sal> Thanks Doug> sal> There is a lot of information here that we will provide in paper> format> sal> I would like to begin the question answer session> > [jayv2] I don't think this is productive in a text chat> [jayv2] maybe it should have been done in a voice broadcast> > sal> This is our first one> > [bswihart] Well, sounds like some level of progress, at least.> > sal> things will improve as we move forward. I would like to begin with> sal> BrainScan. Please ask any questions you may have.> > [bswihart] Is there a plan for open source cvs development on scripts?> [bswihart] A sourceforge-like area?> > [BrainScan] What will the forums and webring consist of? I welcome the> [BrainScan] concept of the developer program but want more information> on > [BrainScan] my responsibilities as a certified developer.> [BrainScan] I'm also interested in a venue for marketing third-party> WebDNA tools.> > sal> Yes, all of that is what we are building in the Resource Center> sal> The WebRing will have a list of all WebDNA sites> > [DougDeck] There will be a benefits/ requirements matrix outy next week,> but > [DougDeck] the first level is an easy to get into level with little> requirement. > [DougDeck] Second level has SOME $$ requirement, but not unreasonable.> > [BrainScan] Will the licence purchase requirements include licenses> purchased > [BrainScan] by our clients?> > [DougDeck] Licenses you purchase for your clients are included, as will> [DougDeck] be those they bought through you.> > [bswihart] Why rely on a webDNA forum/architecture for this? I mean,> you're > [bswihart] using Java to run this chat. There's no shame in using> php/MySQL > [bswihart] to properly run a high-end content site.> > [BrainScan] So developers become resellers? Does this mean we sell to> our > [BrainScan] clients at retail and keep the discount we get as our> commission?> > sal> We want to show WebDNA can be used to build anything> > [bswihart] As far as I'm concerned, webDNA is for small-scale> fast-turnaround > [bswihart] widgets and is inappropriate for serious projects beyond> basic web > [bswihart] sites and apps. Has the documentation been re-written?> > [Howard-ThePubb] i don't think that the current documentation needs to> be > [Howard-ThePubb] re-written --- from a syntax manual, i think it is> relatively > [Howard-ThePubb] good. What you need a programming manual...something> completely > [Howard-ThePubb] different.> > [scontreras] BrainScan's question regarding CVS...> [scontreras] refer to http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/ for an example> of > [scontreras] a public CVS site... for collaberative development efforts.> > [scontreras] This is something we *can* do in the future.> > [pbonesteele] On this issue of 'scale': we are all working towards> expanding > [pbonesteele] the capabilities to enable all of you to address broader> markets and solutions> > sal> grayloon> > [grayloon] How do you become certified?> > [scontreras] We are working on a CMS/CVS/RCS system for the 5.0 release.> > [scontreras] Presumably we would use this to drive a public CVS site...> > [DougDeck] Level I wil only need profile information to join the> program. > [DougDeck] Level II will have certification options. Once that is> available, > [DougDeck] those certified will be eligible to receive leades from us.> [DougDeck] No specifics yet.> > [pbonesteele] We are adding significant support for XML, XSLT, the> ability > [pbonesteele] to build application logic as a Web Service, Content> Management, > [pbonesteele] etc., needed to address broader needs> > sal> howard> > [bswihart] Well, good. I have about 50 applications that I really want> to > [bswihart] put out there for everyone to use. It's ridiculous that> there are > [bswihart] so few resources... webDNA developers have to solve every> problem > [bswihart] from scratch, getting tidbits here and there from the mailing> list. > [bswihart] There should be something like 1000 applications ready to use> and > [bswihart] fully open source if the webDNA devleoper community> participated. > > [Howard-ThePubb] how likely is it that we'll see either a simplistic> [Howard-ThePubb] development IDE or commandline parser that will> expedite > [Howard-ThePubb] development time by catching syntax errors faster?> simply > [Howard-ThePubb] testing in a browser by cut/pasting sections just> doesn't do it> > [jayv2] Has there been any consideration to OpenSourcing all of WebDNA?> > [sanderson] We are working on a WebDNA debugger which will allow you to> step > [sanderson] through the WebDNA context as they are parsed.> > [Howard-ThePubb] that sounds great....what's the ETA on it and what are> the > [Howard-ThePubb] expected platforms that would be on?> > sal> We can open this up to multiple questions> > [pbonesteele] Open sourcing hasn't been really discussed ... though if> there's > [pbonesteele] a viable business model in it, we would welcome your input> > > [sanderson] The debugger will be java based with socket 'hooks' into the> WebDNA engine. > > [jayv2] sorry - I was out of turn -- I have had connection issues...> this chat thing > > [Howard-ThePubb] sounds good scott...is this more of a 2003 feature, or> sooner? > > [scontreras] Adding to Scott's response... the debugger will be, in> effect, an embedded IDE.> > [bswihart] It seems that webDNA is following a model similar to> Allaire/Macromedia or> [bswihart] even Microsoft. It's a personal choice... whether to go> with OS solutions or paid...> [bswihart] I think that if you bought webDNA, then you made your choice> clear!> > [pbonesteele] The IDE is planned for inclusion in our end-of-Q4 product> release. > > [sanderson] Planned to be included with the first WebDNA 5.0 release.> Early 2003> > [Howard-ThePubb] thanks> > [jayv2] already a little disagreement on schedules...> > sal> We will continue this chat beyond the 2:30 end time> > [jtyler] Any eta on v5 beta/alpha or at least an update on what to> expect for new > [jtyler] contexts/features (beyond marketing kinds of things)> > [Rob_Marquardt] Speaking of 5.0 -- I came in late, so this may have been> addressed -- > [Rob_Marquardt] are there any features of 5.0 you can disclose at this> time? > > [bswihart] Will there someday be a way to run webDNA applications on any> platform? > [bswihart] Or at least a platform that doesn't have the full webDNA> package installed?> > [pbonesteele] on the question of BETA: in Q4 ... specific dates to be> announced as > [pbonesteele] we get further into development and have functionality> ready to test > > [jayv2] since the developers are your resellers, is there going to be a> coop marketing fund?> > [pbonesteele] 5.0 Feature list: we've talked about this in the talk list> before, > [pbonesteele] but in summary, several engine extensions such as a> 'sandbox', etc., but the BIG> [pbonesteele] additions are extensive XML/XSLT extensions, Content> Management, Web Services,> [pbonesteele] and the IDE> > [DougDeck] No immediate plans for a co-op fund, but it is being> considered.> > [BrainScan] Will the concept of user-defined functions with local-scope> variables be > [BrainScan] included in version 5?> > [pbonesteele] The Intranet Edition will be end of Q3 ... again features> were posted > [pbonesteele] to the talk list awhile back.> > [bswihart] Recommendation: Send this chat log to the webDNA talk list.> > sal> We will do that> > [scontreras] Will do, bswihart...> > [sanderson] Local scope variables will be added to the [include]> context. As > [sanderson] well as scope resolution operators> > [jayv2] sorry - dumped for the last time... this chat stuff is unusable> for me - sorry> > [Howard-ThePubb] scott - you mentioned scope -- is there hope then to> resolve scope > [Howard-ThePubb] issues like with [date] when you're in a [cart]> context? > > [bswihart] Re-posting the question: will webDNA be able to run on other> platforms, > [bswihart] perhaps in an independent CGI space? Have you ever> considered some kind of> [bswihart] portability like this?> > [sanderson] exactly i.e. [::date] vs. [date]> > [scontreras] We are also adding a new concept to various new> contexts/tags... > [scontreras] the ability to create object reference variables.> > [Rob_Marquardt] What do the extensive XML/XSLT extensions bring to the> table, > [Rob_Marquardt] from a developer's standpoint?> > [BrainScan] Still looking for the ability to add my functions / macros> and access them> [BrainScan] like [myfunction name=abc&total=75]...> > [Howard-ThePubb] back to the ide for a sec...any chance it will having> anything similar to> [Howard-ThePubb] intellisense (to autocomplete as you're typing)...> > [scontreras] XML/XSLT will be the basis for remoting applications from a> more > [scontreras] arbitrary standpoint... think XML app servers and their> relation to > [scontreras] collaberative b2b applications.> > [Rob_Marquardt] Let me get my Buzzword to English dictionary... ; )> > [sanderson] Brian - looking to enhance the existing [include] context to> a point where > [sanderson] it behaves much like user defined calls> > [scontreras] Inherent XML capabilites will also offer a new method of> persisting> [scontreras] data as well as a new method to query that data.> > [Rob_Marquardt] Will 5.0 include an XML parser, then?> > [scontreras] The CMS system will be built on XML/XSLT and incorporate> some Web Services stuff.> [scontreras] It will.> > [sanderson] Rob-Yes> > [Rob_Marquardt] Excellent.> > [jtyler] there was talk of local scope variables (which is great), how> about user scope vars?> > [scontreras] As well as an XSL process and XPath resolver.> [scontreras] XSL Processor, that is> > [sanderson] jtyler - an example?> > [pbonesteele] Yes ... 5.0 will include the XML parser and XSLT> Translator, along with the> [pbonesteele] ability to build Web Services (UDDI, WSDL, and SOAP> protocols) on top of the underlying> [pbonesteele] parser/translator> [pbonesteele] As Steve mentioned, the entire Content Management will be> built on top of this> [pbonesteele] as a remotable server side application> > [scontreras] FYI, XSLT is a great new feature that will allow for> transforming any XML-based> [scontreras] markup into any text-based, user-defined format.> > [jtyler] in some similiar enviroments you can set a variable for a user> that can be > [jtyler] retrieved for that particular user at anypoint. Think cart, but> it's not a file > [jtyler] just memory resident on the server, ussually key'd from a> cookie or url parameter.> > [scontreras] For example, one might transform raw HTML into a flat-file> or some other format.> > sal> Okay guys, we have about 2 more minutes> > [sanderson] jtyler- So this would be like session data? I have> considered this. You can implement> [sanderson] this now using a cookie and a session database> > [Howard-ThePubb] How about data structures? Any chance we may see some> true structures > [Howard-ThePubb] (like arrays) that aren't just naming hacks> > [sanderson] howard - Yes, the array context is being completeed now.> > [Howard-ThePubb] any others? (queue/stack/list/etc..) or are we expected> to build our own > [Howard-ThePubb] procedures around the array?> > [danstrong] sorry i'm late> > sal> Please know that you can contact any of us if you have further> questions.> > [DougDeck] Better late than never> > [jtyler] sanderson-Yes, I was just hoping for something not tied to a> db, since > [jtyler] they can get stagnant. Perhaps a server global var space and a> new temp table would do this.> > [sanderson] One of the strengths of WebDNA is that it is 'firendly' to> those non-programmers> [sanderson] who may not be aware of more complex data structures> > sal> Hi Dan> > [danstrong] howdy> > [scontreras] We've considered exposing other data-structures, such as> hashtables, stacks, etc.> > [Howard-ThePubb] i understand...but the lack of more well defined> datastuctures obfuscates> [Howard-ThePubb] code and makes it less maintainable, and therefore,> less worthwhile to program> > [sanderson] Still...I am amazed at how some WebDNA programmers can> overcome those missing> [sanderson] 'elements'. But I think we can start introducing them.> > [DougDeck] Thanks for joining us. We'll let you know about future chats> on the talk list.> > [sanderson] Bye Doug. I'll hang around for a few.> > [scontreras] Key word being considered, though. Suffice it to say> that these topics> [scontreras] are being discussed and considered on a daily basis.> > [BrainScan] Will arrays be multidimensional? sortable?> > [Howard-ThePubb] right...i'm not sayign that it can't be done...i'm just> talking aobut > [Howard-ThePubb] long-term maintenance of code with using these> programming hacks> [Howard-ThePubb] to make up for missing features> > [sanderson] Current the new array context is limited to 5 dimensions.> > [dylan] anyone chatting?> [sanderson] It has been requested that some of our iterative contexts be> 'sortable' > [sanderson] which is what led to the creation of the [table] context.> > [Rob_Marquardt] How would these array variables appear in code?> [var(n)]? > [Rob_Marquardt] Big fan of [table] here, btw> > [sanderson] Rob - something like that. I do not want to get into the> details, as things may change a bit> > [jtyler] anychance we'll see a join context for joining multiple db's,> similiar to join in sql?> > [sanderson] THanks, I think the [table] context is very usefull> > [Howard-ThePubb] while i know that smithmicro doesn't like to release> numbers, > [Howard-ThePubb] and chance it can release percentages...more to the> point, from a 3rd> [Howard-ThePubb] party developer stand point, any chance i can find out> what the > [Howard-ThePubb] percentage of licenses are between different versions> (3 vs 4) as > [Howard-ThePubb] well as a percentage of how many of thsoe are the same> people vs different...> [Howard-ThePubb] this helps in deciding which version to code for> (larger userbase vs. better features)> > [sanderson] jtyler - that is on the list of 'things that would be nice> to add' , > [sanderson] but that is not slated for 5.0> > [jtyler] okay, thanks scott, just trying to get our data normalized a> little bit. I think [table] will help a lot.> > [DougDeck] Howard- don't know the answer. Will find out though.> > [Howard-ThePubb] thanks doug> > [sanderson] With the introduction of the XSLT parser, it is also> possible to use XPATH to make some complex queries> > [jtyler] Must run, thank you everyone at smithmicro for the info.> > [sanderson] Bye.> > [dylan] bye> > [scontreras] one last comment on data-structures...> > [Howard-ThePubb] sal - one quick note -- it looks like you guys probably> had all that > [Howard-ThePubb] initial stuff typed out (in word probably b/c of those> high-ascii> [Howard-ThePubb] characters) before copy/pasting it...you probably> should have posted> [Howard-ThePubb] those docs prior to the chat for perusing and then made> this chat more of a chat> [Howard-ThePubb] from the beginning> > sal> I agree with you Howard> > [dylan] before I miss my chance, I ws interested in talking a little> about the webDNA community, or needs, etc> > [scontreras] With the new XMLParse context it will be possible to> represent a tree-like structure...> [scontreras] XMLParse will be a context that allows for creating and> parsing a document dynamically.> > sal> Now I know what works best> > [scontreras] So you could, for example, do the following: e.g.> > [XMLParse]> > value> > value1a> value1b> > >> [/XMLParse]> > [Howard-ThePubb] enticing...> [scontreras] and then access that and reparse as necessary to add new> nodes and attributes/change values...> [Howard-ThePubb] ooh ooh ooh....any chance there may be an option to add> type/constraint info directly to a db in v5.0> [Howard-ThePubb] per field> > [scontreras] You're refering to type-validation now :)> [scontreras] That is an XML feature.> > [Howard-ThePubb] i know what you're referring to, but that's not what> I'm referring too...> [Howard-ThePubb] right now we need something like eqMYFIELDtype=int> [Howard-ThePubb] it would be nice if we already defined in the db that> my field is an int field> [Howard-ThePubb] and not have to worry about that> [Howard-ThePubb] it could also then take care of string data put into an> int field > [Howard-ThePubb] (like passing in '123a' would only store '123', etc...> [> > sanderson] Howard - that is left to the query. THe database treatds> everything as a string.> > [Howard-ThePubb] similar to what other databases do....just wondering> > sal> Dylan, I will need resources from the community to put this> together> > [Howard-ThePubb] been using SQL Server a lot for a while now and guess i> took a lot of > [Howard-ThePubb] its features for granted..that's all> > [scontreras] If you store your data in an XML document, that is> certainly possible> [scontreras] using validation against an XMLSchema (XSD) document.> > [dylan] This question is for SAL: is it possible to do a chat like this> on a > [dylan] monthly or bi-monthly basis, based off of specific topics?> > [BrainScan] This has been a valiant and valuable first effort. I, as a> WebDNA developer,> [BrainScan]greatly appreciate the new focus on marketing and developer> relations. > [BrainScan]Gotta go earn my allowance now... Thanks.> > sal> Yes, I will discuss this with Doug and let you know> > [scontreras] XPath would be your query language in that case, Howard.> > sal> The Forum will be operational soon as well> > [Howard-ThePubb] ok..thanks steve> > [scontreras] My pleasure.> > sal> would be a great place to have these types of discussions so other> developers can see what> sal> WebDNA is all about> > [dylan] Sal - if we get something preliminary up soon, that at lest> accepts submissions,> [dylan] that would be priority> > [Rob_Marquardt] A permanent #WebDNA channel on IRC, perhaps> > [scontreras] I will be posting this to the talklist after we conclude,> FYI. This transcript...> > [dylan] I like the idea of being able to view based off of topics.> > sal> We will be using The Pubb created by Howard for the Forum> sal> It will be open soon> sal> What I do need is a collaborative effort for content> > [Howard-ThePubb] once you guys get the cvs working on the site, i have> two great projects that i can add to it> > [dylan] Is there a staging area which is accesible via ftp for us to> test new modules before> [dylan] they are intergreated into thre resouce center?> > sal> not yet, but that is a good suggestion> > [dylan] For content you otta do things like present specific challenges> to the group, > [dylan] like build a chat with flash mx and webDNA> > sal> I will work on that> > [sanderson] I think it is time for me to get back to implementing the> new features! > [sanderson] Is has been great chating with you all.> > sal> Thanks Scott> > [scontreras] I should get back t work as well. :)> > [dylan] bye scott> > [Howard-ThePubb] i as well...thanks all> > [Rob_Marquardt] 5.0 beta next week Tuesday, then? ; )> > sal> I agree with you Dylan> > --------------------------------------- END OF CHAT> > - Ben Swihart> Gotricities Network> > > -------------------------------------------------------------> This message is sent to you because you are subscribed to> the mailing list .> To unsubscribe, E-mail to: > To switch to the DIGEST mode, E-mail to> > Web Archive of this list is at: http://search.smithmicro.com/-------------------------------------------------------------This message is sent to you because you are subscribed to the mailing list .To unsubscribe, E-mail to: To switch to the DIGEST mode, E-mail to Web Archive of this list is at: http://search.smithmicro.com/ Associated Messages, from the most recent to the oldest:

Re: 2002 08 15 chat, reformatted (Dylan Wood 2002)
2002 08 15 chat, reformatted (Ben Swihart 2002)

Thanks.On 8/16/02 12:12 AM, Ben Swihart wrote:> I found the chat transcript to be impossible to read.. Not sure if> anyone else experienced that. Here's a reformatted version. You can> also get this on the web:> http://gotricities.net/webdna/webDNAchat20020815.txt> > sal> I would like to say thank you to all of you for participating> sal> in this first WebDNA Chat Session. Before we begin, I would like to> > sal> introduce the members of the SMSI Team.> sal> Doug Deck-Sales and Marketing Director.> sal> Philip BoneSteele-Director of E-Business Products and Services> sal> Scott Anderson-Senior WebDNA Engineer Steve Contreras-Senior> sal> Software Engineer/Architect Brian Looper-Project Manager> sal> And I am Salvatore D'Anna. I will be the moderator today> sal> I would like to thank all of you for attending.> sal> The main purpose of this chat is to give you the opportunity to> sal> update you on what we are planning and to get your feedback and> sal> participation throughout this process. Here is the procedure for> this > sal> chat session. I will outline for you my vision for the WebDNA> Resource > sal> Center. When I am finished, Doug Deck will outline our Partnership> sal> Program. Finally, it will be your turn to ask questions. The> questions > sal> will be asked in aphabetical order by username. I will ask the user> one > sal> by one if they have any questions.> sal> Let's begin:> sal> Concept: The Proof is in the DNA WebDNA WebDNA Resource Center> sal> There are two main purposes for the WebDNA Resource Center The> sal> first is to increase awareness in the IT Industry, mainly the> sal> Network Administrators who will have to maintain the servers.> sal> Currently, they are more inclined to stick with what they know.> sal> The second is to increase our Developer Community by providing> sal> information that will convince other developers that WebDNA is a> sal> faster and better solution in the long run.> sal> Network Administrators and Developers both have a common goal which> > sal> can be defined in three letters ROI This WebDNA Resource Center's> > sal> main purpose is to prove to everyone that nothing can beat WebDNA> when > sal> it comes to their Return on Investment. I have compiled a list of> items > sal> that I think are crucial for the WebDNA Resource Center Main> Sections of site:> sal> Forums-This has been provided by The Pubb> sal> Application Showcase including Demos> sal> Web Ring> sal> Certified Partners> sal> White Papers> sal> News and Events> sal> Products> sal> Downloads> sal> Home Page should have the following updated articles:> sal> Getting Started Guide> sal> WebDNA Best Practices> sal> From Simple to Complex-The WebDNa Tutorials> sal> The Power of WebDNA Applications> sal> Data Management in WebDNA> sal> XML Tags in WebDNA> sal> Sample Apps> sal> We will also need to provide the following:> sal> White Papers> sal> Product Evaluation Guide> sal> ROI Guide> sal> Multiple How To's> sal> Case Studies> sal> and WebDNA Upgrade Path> sal> As you can see, there is a lot of work to be done which will> sal> benefit all of us in the long run. I will need your participation> sal> throughout this process and look forward to working with all of> sal> you to make this a reality.> sal> I will now turn the forum over to Doug Deck to describe the WebDNA> sal> Partner Program.> > [DougDeck] There are two main parts to the Partner Program> [DougDeck] WebDNA Dev I members receive a 25% discount on all SMSI> products. > [DougDeck] The requirements are that the member post to the forum,> [DougDeck] participate in our webring, and must have at purchased at the> > [DougDeck] minimum 1 license from SMSI [DougDeck] WebDNA Dev II members> [DougDeck] receive a 30% discount on all SMSI products. They will have> [DougDeck] access to training materials and will receive leads from SMSI> > [DougDeck] for consulting work. They will be required to be Certified> by > [DougDeck] SMSI and will have a yet to be determined minimum license> purchases > [DougDeck] per year. They will also participate in the forums and> provide demo > [DougDeck] applications as well. [DougDeck] Dev I and Dev II are> placeholder > [DougDeck] names- suggest others if you want. [DougDeck] Once all of> this is > [DougDeck] formalized, I will send anyone interested an Application for> [DougDeck] either level.> > sal> Thanks Doug> sal> There is a lot of information here that we will provide in paper> format> sal> I would like to begin the question answer session> > [jayv2] I don't think this is productive in a text chat> [jayv2] maybe it should have been done in a voice broadcast> > sal> This is our first one> > [bswihart] Well, sounds like some level of progress, at least.> > sal> things will improve as we move forward. I would like to begin with> sal> BrainScan. Please ask any questions you may have.> > [bswihart] Is there a plan for open source cvs development on scripts?> [bswihart] A sourceforge-like area?> > [BrainScan] What will the forums and webring consist of? I welcome the> [BrainScan] concept of the developer program but want more information> on > [BrainScan] my responsibilities as a certified developer.> [BrainScan] I'm also interested in a venue for marketing third-party> WebDNA tools.> > sal> Yes, all of that is what we are building in the Resource Center> sal> The WebRing will have a list of all WebDNA sites> > [DougDeck] There will be a benefits/ requirements matrix outy next week,> but > [DougDeck] the first level is an easy to get into level with little> requirement. > [DougDeck] Second level has SOME $$ requirement, but not unreasonable.> > [BrainScan] Will the licence purchase requirements include licenses> purchased > [BrainScan] by our clients?> > [DougDeck] Licenses you purchase for your clients are included, as will> [DougDeck] be those they bought through you.> > [bswihart] Why rely on a webDNA forum/architecture for this? I mean,> you're > [bswihart] using Java to run this chat. There's no shame in using> php/MySQL > [bswihart] to properly run a high-end content site.> > [BrainScan] So developers become resellers? Does this mean we sell to> our > [BrainScan] clients at retail and keep the discount we get as our> commission?> > sal> We want to show WebDNA can be used to build anything> > [bswihart] As far as I'm concerned, webDNA is for small-scale> fast-turnaround > [bswihart] widgets and is inappropriate for serious projects beyond> basic web > [bswihart] sites and apps. Has the documentation been re-written?> > [Howard-ThePubb] i don't think that the current documentation needs to> be > [Howard-ThePubb] re-written --- from a syntax manual, i think it is> relatively > [Howard-ThePubb] good. What you need a programming manual...something> completely > [Howard-ThePubb] different.> > [scontreras] BrainScan's question regarding CVS...> [scontreras] refer to http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/ for an example> of > [scontreras] a public CVS site... for collaberative development efforts.> > [scontreras] This is something we *can* do in the future.> > [pbonesteele] On this issue of 'scale': we are all working towards> expanding > [pbonesteele] the capabilities to enable all of you to address broader> markets and solutions> > sal> grayloon> > [grayloon] How do you become certified?> > [scontreras] We are working on a CMS/CVS/RCS system for the 5.0 release.> > [scontreras] Presumably we would use this to drive a public CVS site...> > [DougDeck] Level I wil only need profile information to join the> program. > [DougDeck] Level II will have certification options. Once that is> available, > [DougDeck] those certified will be eligible to receive leades from us.> [DougDeck] No specifics yet.> > [pbonesteele] We are adding significant support for XML, XSLT, the> ability > [pbonesteele] to build application logic as a Web Service, Content> Management, > [pbonesteele] etc., needed to address broader needs> > sal> howard> > [bswihart] Well, good. I have about 50 applications that I really want> to > [bswihart] put out there for everyone to use. It's ridiculous that> there are > [bswihart] so few resources... webDNA developers have to solve every> problem > [bswihart] from scratch, getting tidbits here and there from the mailing> list. > [bswihart] There should be something like 1000 applications ready to use> and > [bswihart] fully open source if the webDNA devleoper community> participated. > > [Howard-ThePubb] how likely is it that we'll see either a simplistic> [Howard-ThePubb] development IDE or commandline parser that will> expedite > [Howard-ThePubb] development time by catching syntax errors faster?> simply > [Howard-ThePubb] testing in a browser by cut/pasting sections just> doesn't do it> > [jayv2] Has there been any consideration to OpenSourcing all of WebDNA?> > [sanderson] We are working on a WebDNA debugger which will allow you to> step > [sanderson] through the WebDNA context as they are parsed.> > [Howard-ThePubb] that sounds great....what's the ETA on it and what are> the > [Howard-ThePubb] expected platforms that would be on?> > sal> We can open this up to multiple questions> > [pbonesteele] Open sourcing hasn't been really discussed ... though if> there's > [pbonesteele] a viable business model in it, we would welcome your input> > > [sanderson] The debugger will be java based with socket 'hooks' into the> WebDNA engine. > > [jayv2] sorry - I was out of turn -- I have had connection issues...> this chat thing > > [Howard-ThePubb] sounds good scott...is this more of a 2003 feature, or> sooner? > > [scontreras] Adding to Scott's response... the debugger will be, in> effect, an embedded IDE.> > [bswihart] It seems that webDNA is following a model similar to> Allaire/Macromedia or> [bswihart] even Microsoft. It's a personal choice... whether to go> with OS solutions or paid...> [bswihart] I think that if you bought webDNA, then you made your choice> clear!> > [pbonesteele] The IDE is planned for inclusion in our end-of-Q4 product> release. > > [sanderson] Planned to be included with the first WebDNA 5.0 release.> Early 2003> > [Howard-ThePubb] thanks> > [jayv2] already a little disagreement on schedules...> > sal> We will continue this chat beyond the 2:30 end time> > [jtyler] Any eta on v5 beta/alpha or at least an update on what to> expect for new > [jtyler] contexts/features (beyond marketing kinds of things)> > [Rob_Marquardt] Speaking of 5.0 -- I came in late, so this may have been> addressed -- > [Rob_Marquardt] are there any features of 5.0 you can disclose at this> time? > > [bswihart] Will there someday be a way to run webDNA applications on any> platform? > [bswihart] Or at least a platform that doesn't have the full webDNA> package installed?> > [pbonesteele] on the question of BETA: in Q4 ... specific dates to be> announced as > [pbonesteele] we get further into development and have functionality> ready to test > > [jayv2] since the developers are your resellers, is there going to be a> coop marketing fund?> > [pbonesteele] 5.0 Feature list: we've talked about this in the Talk List> before, > [pbonesteele] but in summary, several engine extensions such as a> 'sandbox', etc., but the BIG> [pbonesteele] additions are extensive XML/XSLT extensions, Content> Management, Web Services,> [pbonesteele] and the IDE> > [DougDeck] No immediate plans for a co-op fund, but it is being> considered.> > [BrainScan] Will the concept of user-defined functions with local-scope> variables be > [BrainScan] included in version 5?> > [pbonesteele] The Intranet Edition will be end of Q3 ... again features> were posted > [pbonesteele] to the Talk List awhile back.> > [bswihart] Recommendation: Send this chat log to the webDNA Talk List.> > sal> We will do that> > [scontreras] Will do, bswihart...> > [sanderson] Local scope variables will be added to the [include]> context. As > [sanderson] well as scope resolution operators> > [jayv2] sorry - dumped for the last time... this chat stuff is unusable> for me - sorry> > [Howard-ThePubb] scott - you mentioned scope -- is there hope then to> resolve scope > [Howard-ThePubb] issues like with [date] when you're in a [cart]> context? > > [bswihart] Re-posting the question: will webDNA be able to run on other> platforms, > [bswihart] perhaps in an independent CGI space? Have you ever> considered some kind of> [bswihart] portability like this?> > [sanderson] exactly i.e. [::date] vs. [date]> > [scontreras] We are also adding a new concept to various new> contexts/tags... > [scontreras] the ability to create object reference variables.> > [Rob_Marquardt] What do the extensive XML/XSLT extensions bring to the> table, > [Rob_Marquardt] from a developer's standpoint?> > [BrainScan] Still looking for the ability to add my functions / macros> and access them> [BrainScan] like [myfunction name=abc&total=75]...> > [Howard-ThePubb] back to the ide for a sec...any chance it will having> anything similar to> [Howard-ThePubb] intellisense (to autocomplete as you're typing)...> > [scontreras] XML/XSLT will be the basis for remoting applications from a> more > [scontreras] arbitrary standpoint... think XML app servers and their> relation to > [scontreras] collaberative b2b applications.> > [Rob_Marquardt] Let me get my Buzzword to English dictionary... ; )> > [sanderson] Brian - looking to enhance the existing [include] context to> a point where > [sanderson] it behaves much like user defined calls> > [scontreras] Inherent XML capabilites will also offer a new method of> persisting> [scontreras] data as well as a new method to query that data.> > [Rob_Marquardt] Will 5.0 include an XML parser, then?> > [scontreras] The CMS system will be built on XML/XSLT and incorporate> some Web Services stuff.> [scontreras] It will.> > [sanderson] Rob-Yes> > [Rob_Marquardt] Excellent.> > [jtyler] there was talk of local scope variables (which is great), how> about user scope vars?> > [scontreras] As well as an XSL process and XPath resolver.> [scontreras] XSL Processor, that is> > [sanderson] jtyler - an example?> > [pbonesteele] Yes ... 5.0 will include the XML parser and XSLT> Translator, along with the> [pbonesteele] ability to build Web Services (UDDI, WSDL, and SOAP> protocols) on top of the underlying> [pbonesteele] parser/translator> [pbonesteele] As Steve mentioned, the entire Content Management will be> built on top of this> [pbonesteele] as a remotable server side application> > [scontreras] FYI, XSLT is a great new feature that will allow for> transforming any XML-based> [scontreras] markup into any text-based, user-defined format.> > [jtyler] in some similiar enviroments you can set a variable for a user> that can be > [jtyler] retrieved for that particular user at anypoint. Think cart, but> it's not a file > [jtyler] just memory resident on the server, ussually key'd from a> cookie or url parameter.> > [scontreras] For example, one might transform raw HTML into a flat-file> or some other format.> > sal> Okay guys, we have about 2 more minutes> > [sanderson] jtyler- So this would be like session data? I have> considered this. You can implement> [sanderson] this now using a cookie and a session database> > [Howard-ThePubb] How about data structures? Any chance we may see some> true structures > [Howard-ThePubb] (like arrays) that aren't just naming hacks> > [sanderson] howard - Yes, the array context is being completeed now.> > [Howard-ThePubb] any others? (queue/stack/list/etc..) or are we expected> to build our own > [Howard-ThePubb] procedures around the array?> > [danstrong] sorry i'm late> > sal> Please know that you can contact any of us if you have further> questions.> > [DougDeck] Better late than never> > [jtyler] sanderson-Yes, I was just hoping for something not tied to a> db, since > [jtyler] they can get stagnant. Perhaps a server global var space and a> new temp table would do this.> > [sanderson] One of the strengths of WebDNA is that it is 'firendly' to> those non-programmers> [sanderson] who may not be aware of more complex data structures> > sal> Hi Dan> > [danstrong] howdy> > [scontreras] We've considered exposing other data-structures, such as> hashtables, stacks, etc.> > [Howard-ThePubb] i understand...but the lack of more well defined> datastuctures obfuscates> [Howard-ThePubb] code and makes it less maintainable, and therefore,> less worthwhile to program> > [sanderson] Still...I am amazed at how some WebDNA programmers can> overcome those missing> [sanderson] 'elements'. But I think we can start introducing them.> > [DougDeck] Thanks for joining us. We'll let you know about future chats> on the Talk List.> > [sanderson] Bye Doug. I'll hang around for a few.> > [scontreras] Key word being considered, though. Suffice it to say> that these topics> [scontreras] are being discussed and considered on a daily basis.> > [BrainScan] Will arrays be multidimensional? sortable?> > [Howard-ThePubb] right...i'm not sayign that it can't be done...i'm just> talking aobut > [Howard-ThePubb] long-term maintenance of code with using these> programming hacks> [Howard-ThePubb] to make up for missing features> > [sanderson] Current the new array context is limited to 5 dimensions.> > [dylan] anyone chatting?> [sanderson] It has been requested that some of our iterative contexts be> 'sortable' > [sanderson] which is what led to the creation of the [table] context.> > [Rob_Marquardt] How would these array variables appear in code?> [var(n)]? > [Rob_Marquardt] Big fan of [table] here, btw> > [sanderson] Rob - something like that. I do not want to get into the> details, as things may change a bit> > [jtyler] anychance we'll see a join context for joining multiple db's,> similiar to join in sql?> > [sanderson] THanks, I think the [table] context is very usefull> > [Howard-ThePubb] while i know that smithmicro doesn't like to release> numbers, > [Howard-ThePubb] and chance it can release percentages...more to the> point, from a 3rd> [Howard-ThePubb] party developer stand point, any chance i can find out> what the > [Howard-ThePubb] percentage of licenses are between different versions> (3 vs 4) as > [Howard-ThePubb] well as a percentage of how many of thsoe are the same> people vs different...> [Howard-ThePubb] this helps in deciding which version to code for> (larger userbase vs. better features)> > [sanderson] jtyler - that is on the list of 'things that would be nice> to add' , > [sanderson] but that is not slated for 5.0> > [jtyler] okay, thanks scott, just trying to get our data normalized a> little bit. I think [table] will help a lot.> > [DougDeck] Howard- don't know the answer. Will find out though.> > [Howard-ThePubb] thanks doug> > [sanderson] With the introduction of the XSLT parser, it is also> possible to use XPATH to make some complex queries> > [jtyler] Must run, thank you everyone at smithmicro for the info.> > [sanderson] Bye.> > [dylan] bye> > [scontreras] one last comment on data-structures...> > [Howard-ThePubb] sal - one quick note -- it looks like you guys probably> had all that > [Howard-ThePubb] initial stuff typed out (in word probably b/c of those> high-ascii> [Howard-ThePubb] characters) before copy/pasting it...you probably> should have posted> [Howard-ThePubb] those docs prior to the chat for perusing and then made> this chat more of a chat> [Howard-ThePubb] from the beginning> > sal> I agree with you Howard> > [dylan] before I miss my chance, I ws interested in talking a little> about the webDNA community, or needs, etc> > [scontreras] With the new XMLParse context it will be possible to> represent a tree-like structure...> [scontreras] XMLParse will be a context that allows for creating and> parsing a document dynamically.> > sal> Now I know what works best> > [scontreras] So you could, for example, do the following: e.g.> > [xmlparse]> > value> > value1a> value1b> > >> [/XMLParse]> > [Howard-ThePubb] enticing...> [scontreras] and then access that and reparse as necessary to add new> nodes and attributes/change values...> [Howard-ThePubb] ooh ooh ooh....any chance there may be an option to add> type/constraint info directly to a db in v5.0> [Howard-ThePubb] per field> > [scontreras] You're refering to type-validation now :)> [scontreras] That is an XML feature.> > [Howard-ThePubb] i know what you're referring to, but that's not what> I'm referring too...> [Howard-ThePubb] right now we need something like eqMYFIELDtype=int> [Howard-ThePubb] it would be nice if we already defined in the db that> my field is an int field> [Howard-ThePubb] and not have to worry about that> [Howard-ThePubb] it could also then take care of string data put into an> int field > [Howard-ThePubb] (like passing in '123a' would only store '123', etc...> [> > sanderson] Howard - that is left to the query. THe database treatds> everything as a string.> > [Howard-ThePubb] similar to what other databases do....just wondering> > sal> Dylan, I will need resources from the community to put this> together> > [Howard-ThePubb] been using SQL Server a lot for a while now and guess i> took a lot of > [Howard-ThePubb] its features for granted..that's all> > [scontreras] If you store your data in an XML document, that is> certainly possible> [scontreras] using validation against an XMLSchema (XSD) document.> > [dylan] This question is for SAL: is it possible to do a chat like this> on a > [dylan] monthly or bi-monthly basis, based off of specific topics?> > [BrainScan] This has been a valiant and valuable first effort. I, as a> WebDNA developer,> [BrainScan]greatly appreciate the new focus on marketing and developer> relations. > [BrainScan]Gotta go earn my allowance now... Thanks.> > sal> Yes, I will discuss this with Doug and let you know> > [scontreras] XPath would be your query language in that case, Howard.> > sal> The Forum will be operational soon as well> > [Howard-ThePubb] ok..thanks steve> > [scontreras] My pleasure.> > sal> would be a great place to have these types of discussions so other> developers can see what> sal> WebDNA is all about> > [dylan] Sal - if we get something preliminary up soon, that at lest> accepts submissions,> [dylan] that would be priority> > [Rob_Marquardt] A permanent #WebDNA channel on IRC, perhaps> > [scontreras] I will be posting this to the talklist after we conclude,> FYI. This transcript...> > [dylan] I like the idea of being able to view based off of topics.> > sal> We will be using The Pubb created by Howard for the Forum> sal> It will be open soon> sal> What I do need is a collaborative effort for content> > [Howard-ThePubb] once you guys get the cvs working on the site, i have> two great projects that i can add to it> > [dylan] Is there a staging area which is accesible via ftp for us to> test new modules before> [dylan] they are intergreated into thre resouce center?> > sal> not yet, but that is a good suggestion> > [dylan] For content you otta do things like present specific challenges> to the group, > [dylan] like build a chat with flash mx and webDNA> > sal> I will work on that> > [sanderson] I think it is time for me to get back to implementing the> new features! > [sanderson] Is has been great chating with you all.> > sal> Thanks Scott> > [scontreras] I should get back t work as well. :)> > [dylan] bye scott> > [Howard-ThePubb] i as well...thanks all> > [Rob_Marquardt] 5.0 beta next week Tuesday, then? ; )> > sal> I agree with you Dylan> > --------------------------------------- END OF CHAT> > - Ben Swihart> Gotricities Network> > > -------------------------------------------------------------> This message is sent to you because you are subscribed to> the mailing list .> To unsubscribe, E-mail to: > To switch to the DIGEST mode, E-mail to> > Web Archive of this list is at: http://search.smithmicro.com/-------------------------------------------------------------This message is sent to you because you are subscribed to the mailing list .To unsubscribe, E-mail to: To switch to the DIGEST mode, E-mail to Web Archive of this list is at: http://search.smithmicro.com/ Dylan Wood

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Re: 2002 08 15 chat, reformatted

2002

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