2002 08 15 chat, reformatted

This WebDNA talk-list message is from

2002

It keeps the original formatting. numero = 42593
interpreted = N
texte = I found the chat transcript to be impossible to read.. Not sure ifanyone else experienced that. Here's a reformatted version. You canalso get this on the web:http://gotricities.net/webdna/webDNAchat20020815.txtsal> I would like to say thank you to all of you for participating sal> in this first WebDNA Chat Session. Before we begin, I would like tosal> introduce the members of the SMSI Team.sal> Doug Deck-Sales and Marketing Director. sal> Philip BoneSteele-Director of E-Business Products and Services sal> Scott Anderson-Senior WebDNA Engineer Steve Contreras-Senior sal> Software Engineer/Architect Brian Looper-Project Managersal> And I am Salvatore D'Anna. I will be the moderator todaysal> I would like to thank all of you for attending.sal> The main purpose of this chat is to give you the opportunity to sal> update you on what we are planning and to get your feedback and sal> participation throughout this process. Here is the procedure forthis sal> chat session. I will outline for you my vision for the WebDNAResource sal> Center. When I am finished, Doug Deck will outline our Partnership sal> Program. Finally, it will be your turn to ask questions. Thequestions sal> will be asked in aphabetical order by username. I will ask the userone sal> by one if they have any questions.sal> Let's begin:sal> Concept: The Proof is in the DNA WebDNA WebDNA Resource Centersal> There are two main purposes for the WebDNA Resource Center The sal> first is to increase awareness in the IT Industry, mainly thesal> Network Administrators who will have to maintain the servers. sal> Currently, they are more inclined to stick with what they know.sal> The second is to increase our Developer Community by providingsal> information that will convince other developers that WebDNA is a sal> faster and better solution in the long run.sal> Network Administrators and Developers both have a common goal whichsal> can be defined in three letters ROI This WebDNA Resource Center'ssal> main purpose is to prove to everyone that nothing can beat WebDNAwhen sal> it comes to their Return on Investment. I have compiled a list ofitems sal> that I think are crucial for the WebDNA Resource Center MainSections of site:sal> Forums-This has been provided by The Pubbsal> Application Showcase including Demossal> Web Ringsal> Certified Partnerssal> White Paperssal> News and Eventssal> Productssal> Downloadssal> Home Page should have the following updated articles: sal> Getting Started Guidesal> WebDNA Best Practicessal> From Simple to Complex-The WebDNa Tutorialssal> The Power of WebDNA Applicationssal> Data Management in WebDNAsal> XML Tags in WebDNAsal> Sample Appssal> We will also need to provide the following:sal> White Paperssal> Product Evaluation Guidesal> ROI Guidesal> Multiple How To'ssal> Case Studiessal> and WebDNA Upgrade Pathsal> As you can see, there is a lot of work to be done which will sal> benefit all of us in the long run. I will need your participation sal> throughout this process and look forward to working with all ofsal> you to make this a reality.sal> I will now turn the forum over to Doug Deck to describe the WebDNAsal> Partner Program.[DougDeck] There are two main parts to the Partner Program [DougDeck] WebDNA Dev I members receive a 25% discount on all SMSIproducts. [DougDeck] The requirements are that the member post to the forum, [DougDeck] participate in our webring, and must have at purchased at the[DougDeck] minimum 1 license from SMSI [DougDeck] WebDNA Dev II members [DougDeck] receive a 30% discount on all SMSI products. They will have [DougDeck] access to training materials and will receive leads from SMSI[DougDeck] for consulting work. They will be required to be Certifiedby [DougDeck] SMSI and will have a yet to be determined minimum licensepurchases [DougDeck] per year. They will also participate in the forums andprovide demo [DougDeck] applications as well. [DougDeck] Dev I and Dev II areplaceholder [DougDeck] names- suggest others if you want. [DougDeck] Once all ofthis is [DougDeck] formalized, I will send anyone interested an Application for [DougDeck] either level.sal> Thanks Dougsal> There is a lot of information here that we will provide in paperformatsal> I would like to begin the question answer session[jayv2] I don't think this is productive in a text chat[jayv2] maybe it should have been done in a voice broadcastsal> This is our first one[bswihart] Well, sounds like some level of progress, at least.sal> things will improve as we move forward. I would like to begin with sal> BrainScan. Please ask any questions you may have.[bswihart] Is there a plan for open source cvs development on scripts? [bswihart] A sourceforge-like area? [BrainScan] What will the forums and webring consist of? I welcome the [BrainScan] concept of the developer program but want more informationon [BrainScan] my responsibilities as a certified developer. [BrainScan] I'm also interested in a venue for marketing third-partyWebDNA tools.sal> Yes, all of that is what we are building in the Resource Centersal> The WebRing will have a list of all WebDNA sites [DougDeck] There will be a benefits/ requirements matrix outy next week,but [DougDeck] the first level is an easy to get into level with littlerequirement. [DougDeck] Second level has SOME $$ requirement, but not unreasonable. [BrainScan] Will the licence purchase requirements include licensespurchased [BrainScan] by our clients? [DougDeck] Licenses you purchase for your clients are included, as will [DougDeck] be those they bought through you. [bswihart] Why rely on a webDNA forum/architecture for this? I mean,you're [bswihart] using Java to run this chat. There's no shame in usingphp/MySQL [bswihart] to properly run a high-end content site. [BrainScan] So developers become resellers? Does this mean we sell toour [BrainScan] clients at retail and keep the discount we get as ourcommission?sal> We want to show WebDNA can be used to build anything[bswihart] As far as I'm concerned, webDNA is for small-scalefast-turnaround [bswihart] widgets and is inappropriate for serious projects beyondbasic web [bswihart] sites and apps. Has the documentation been re-written? [Howard-ThePubb] i don't think that the current documentation needs tobe [Howard-ThePubb] re-written --- from a syntax manual, i think it isrelatively [Howard-ThePubb] good. What you need a programming manual...somethingcompletely [Howard-ThePubb] different. [scontreras] BrainScan's question regarding CVS... [scontreras] refer to http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/ for an exampleof [scontreras] a public CVS site... for collaberative development efforts.[scontreras] This is something we *can* do in the future. [pbonesteele] On this issue of 'scale': we are all working towardsexpanding [pbonesteele] the capabilities to enable all of you to address broadermarkets and solutionssal> grayloon[grayloon] How do you become certified?[scontreras] We are working on a CMS/CVS/RCS system for the 5.0 release.[scontreras] Presumably we would use this to drive a public CVS site... [DougDeck] Level I wil only need profile information to join theprogram. [DougDeck] Level II will have certification options. Once that isavailable, [DougDeck] those certified will be eligible to receive leades from us.[DougDeck] No specifics yet.[pbonesteele] We are adding significant support for XML, XSLT, theability [pbonesteele] to build application logic as a Web Service, ContentManagement, [pbonesteele] etc., needed to address broader needssal> howard[bswihart] Well, good. I have about 50 applications that I really wantto [bswihart] put out there for everyone to use. It's ridiculous thatthere are [bswihart] so few resources... webDNA developers have to solve everyproblem [bswihart] from scratch, getting tidbits here and there from the mailinglist. [bswihart] There should be something like 1000 applications ready to useand [bswihart] fully open source if the webDNA devleoper communityparticipated. [Howard-ThePubb] how likely is it that we'll see either a simplistic [Howard-ThePubb] development IDE or commandline parser that willexpedite [Howard-ThePubb] development time by catching syntax errors faster?simply [Howard-ThePubb] testing in a browser by cut/pasting sections justdoesn't do it[jayv2] Has there been any consideration to OpenSourcing all of WebDNA? [sanderson] We are working on a WebDNA debugger which will allow you tostep [sanderson] through the WebDNA context as they are parsed. [Howard-ThePubb] that sounds great....what's the ETA on it and what arethe [Howard-ThePubb] expected platforms that would be on?sal> We can open this up to multiple questions[pbonesteele] Open sourcing hasn't been really discussed ... though ifthere's [pbonesteele] a viable business model in it, we would welcome your input[sanderson] The debugger will be java based with socket 'hooks' into theWebDNA engine. [jayv2] sorry - I was out of turn -- I have had connection issues...this chat thing [Howard-ThePubb] sounds good scott...is this more of a 2003 feature, orsooner? [scontreras] Adding to Scott's response... the debugger will be, ineffect, an embedded IDE.[bswihart] It seems that webDNA is following a model similar toAllaire/Macromedia or [bswihart] even Microsoft. It's a personal choice... whether to gowith OS solutions or paid... [bswihart] I think that if you bought webDNA, then you made your choiceclear![pbonesteele] The IDE is planned for inclusion in our end-of-Q4 productrelease. [sanderson] Planned to be included with the first WebDNA 5.0 release.Early 2003[Howard-ThePubb] thanks[jayv2] already a little disagreement on schedules...sal> We will continue this chat beyond the 2:30 end time[jtyler] Any eta on v5 beta/alpha or at least an update on what toexpect for new [jtyler] contexts/features (beyond marketing kinds of things) [Rob_Marquardt] Speaking of 5.0 -- I came in late, so this may have beenaddressed -- [Rob_Marquardt] are there any features of 5.0 you can disclose at thistime? [bswihart] Will there someday be a way to run webDNA applications on anyplatform? [bswihart] Or at least a platform that doesn't have the full webDNApackage installed? [pbonesteele] on the question of BETA: in Q4 ... specific dates to beannounced as [pbonesteele] we get further into development and have functionalityready to test [jayv2] since the developers are your resellers, is there going to be acoop marketing fund?[pbonesteele] 5.0 Feature list: we've talked about this in the talk listbefore, [pbonesteele] but in summary, several engine extensions such as a'sandbox', etc., but the BIG[pbonesteele] additions are extensive XML/XSLT extensions, ContentManagement, Web Services, [pbonesteele] and the IDE [DougDeck] No immediate plans for a co-op fund, but it is beingconsidered.[BrainScan] Will the concept of user-defined functions with local-scopevariables be [BrainScan] included in version 5? [pbonesteele] The Intranet Edition will be end of Q3 ... again featureswere posted [pbonesteele] to the talk list awhile back. [bswihart] Recommendation: Send this chat log to the webDNA talk list.sal> We will do that[scontreras] Will do, bswihart...[sanderson] Local scope variables will be added to the [include]context. As [sanderson] well as scope resolution operators [jayv2] sorry - dumped for the last time... this chat stuff is unusablefor me - sorry[Howard-ThePubb] scott - you mentioned scope -- is there hope then toresolve scope [Howard-ThePubb] issues like with [date] when you're in a [cart]context? [bswihart] Re-posting the question: will webDNA be able to run on otherplatforms, [bswihart] perhaps in an independent CGI space? Have you everconsidered some kind of [bswihart] portability like this?[sanderson] exactly i.e. [::date] vs. [date][scontreras] We are also adding a new concept to various newcontexts/tags... [scontreras] the ability to create object reference variables. [Rob_Marquardt] What do the extensive XML/XSLT extensions bring to thetable, [Rob_Marquardt] from a developer's standpoint? [BrainScan] Still looking for the ability to add my functions / macrosand access them[BrainScan] like [myfunction name=abc&total=75]... [Howard-ThePubb] back to the ide for a sec...any chance it will havinganything similar to [Howard-ThePubb] intellisense (to autocomplete as you're typing)... [scontreras] XML/XSLT will be the basis for remoting applications from amore [scontreras] arbitrary standpoint... think XML app servers and theirrelation to [scontreras] collaberative b2b applications. [Rob_Marquardt] Let me get my Buzzword to English dictionary... ; ) [sanderson] Brian - looking to enhance the existing [include] context toa point where [sanderson] it behaves much like user defined calls [scontreras] Inherent XML capabilites will also offer a new method ofpersisting[scontreras] data as well as a new method to query that data. [Rob_Marquardt] Will 5.0 include an XML parser, then? [scontreras] The CMS system will be built on XML/XSLT and incorporatesome Web Services stuff. [scontreras] It will.[sanderson] Rob-Yes [Rob_Marquardt] Excellent. [jtyler] there was talk of local scope variables (which is great), howabout user scope vars? [scontreras] As well as an XSL process and XPath resolver. [scontreras] XSL Processor, that is [sanderson] jtyler - an example?[pbonesteele] Yes ... 5.0 will include the XML parser and XSLTTranslator, along with the [pbonesteele] ability to build Web Services (UDDI, WSDL, and SOAPprotocols) on top of the underlying [pbonesteele] parser/translator [pbonesteele] As Steve mentioned, the entire Content Management will bebuilt on top of this [pbonesteele] as a remotable server side application [scontreras] FYI, XSLT is a great new feature that will allow fortransforming any XML-based [scontreras] markup into any text-based, user-defined format. [jtyler] in some similiar enviroments you can set a variable for a userthat can be [jtyler] retrieved for that particular user at anypoint. Think cart, butit's not a file [jtyler] just memory resident on the server, ussually key'd from acookie or url parameter. [scontreras] For example, one might transform raw HTML into a flat-fileor some other format.sal> Okay guys, we have about 2 more minutes[sanderson] jtyler- So this would be like session data? I haveconsidered this. You can implement [sanderson] this now using a cookie and a session database [Howard-ThePubb] How about data structures? Any chance we may see sometrue structures [Howard-ThePubb] (like arrays) that aren't just naming hacks [sanderson] howard - Yes, the array context is being completeed now. [Howard-ThePubb] any others? (queue/stack/list/etc..) or are we expectedto build our own [Howard-ThePubb] procedures around the array?[danstrong] sorry i'm latesal> Please know that you can contact any of us if you have furtherquestions.[DougDeck] Better late than never[jtyler] sanderson-Yes, I was just hoping for something not tied to adb, since [jtyler] they can get stagnant. Perhaps a server global var space and anew temp table would do this. [sanderson] One of the strengths of WebDNA is that it is 'firendly' tothose non-programmers [sanderson] who may not be aware of more complex data structuressal> Hi Dan[danstrong] howdy[scontreras] We've considered exposing other data-structures, such ashashtables, stacks, etc. [Howard-ThePubb] i understand...but the lack of more well defineddatastuctures obfuscates [Howard-ThePubb] code and makes it less maintainable, and therefore,less worthwhile to program [sanderson] Still...I am amazed at how some WebDNA programmers canovercome those missing [sanderson] 'elements'. But I think we can start introducing them. [DougDeck] Thanks for joining us. We'll let you know about future chatson the talk list. [sanderson] Bye Doug. I'll hang around for a few.[scontreras] Key word being considered, though. Suffice it to saythat these topics [scontreras] are being discussed and considered on a daily basis. [BrainScan] Will arrays be multidimensional? sortable? [Howard-ThePubb] right...i'm not sayign that it can't be done...i'm justtalking aobut [Howard-ThePubb] long-term maintenance of code with using theseprogramming hacks [Howard-ThePubb] to make up for missing features[sanderson] Current the new array context is limited to 5 dimensions.[dylan] anyone chatting?[sanderson] It has been requested that some of our iterative contexts be'sortable' [sanderson] which is what led to the creation of the [table] context. [Rob_Marquardt] How would these array variables appear in code?[var(n)]? [Rob_Marquardt] Big fan of [table] here, btw [sanderson] Rob - something like that. I do not want to get into thedetails, as things may change a bit [jtyler] anychance we'll see a join context for joining multiple db's,similiar to join in sql? [sanderson] THanks, I think the [table] context is very usefull [Howard-ThePubb] while i know that smithmicro doesn't like to releasenumbers, [Howard-ThePubb] and chance it can release percentages...more to thepoint, from a 3rd [Howard-ThePubb] party developer stand point, any chance i can find outwhat the [Howard-ThePubb] percentage of licenses are between different versions(3 vs 4) as [Howard-ThePubb] well as a percentage of how many of thsoe are the samepeople vs different...[Howard-ThePubb] this helps in deciding which version to code for(larger userbase vs. better features)[sanderson] jtyler - that is on the list of 'things that would be niceto add' , [sanderson] but that is not slated for 5.0 [jtyler] okay, thanks scott, just trying to get our data normalized alittle bit. I think [table] will help a lot. [DougDeck] Howard- don't know the answer. Will find out though. [Howard-ThePubb] thanks doug [sanderson] With the introduction of the XSLT parser, it is alsopossible to use XPATH to make some complex queries[jtyler] Must run, thank you everyone at smithmicro for the info. [sanderson] Bye.[dylan] bye[scontreras] one last comment on data-structures... [Howard-ThePubb] sal - one quick note -- it looks like you guys probablyhad all that [Howard-ThePubb] initial stuff typed out (in word probably b/c of thosehigh-ascii[Howard-ThePubb] characters) before copy/pasting it...you probablyshould have posted [Howard-ThePubb] those docs prior to the chat for perusing and then madethis chat more of a chat [Howard-ThePubb] from the beginning sal> I agree with you Howard[dylan] before I miss my chance, I ws interested in talking a littleabout the webDNA community, or needs, etc [scontreras] With the new XMLParse context it will be possible torepresent a tree-like structure... [scontreras] XMLParse will be a context that allows for creating andparsing a document dynamically.sal> Now I know what works best[scontreras] So you could, for example, do the following: e.g. [XMLParse] value value1a value1b >[/XMLParse][Howard-ThePubb] enticing...[scontreras] and then access that and reparse as necessary to add newnodes and attributes/change values... [Howard-ThePubb] ooh ooh ooh....any chance there may be an option to addtype/constraint info directly to a db in v5.0 [Howard-ThePubb] per field [scontreras] You're refering to type-validation now :) [scontreras] That is an XML feature. [Howard-ThePubb] i know what you're referring to, but that's not whatI'm referring too...[Howard-ThePubb] right now we need something like eqMYFIELDtype=int [Howard-ThePubb] it would be nice if we already defined in the db thatmy field is an int field [Howard-ThePubb] and not have to worry about that [Howard-ThePubb] it could also then take care of string data put into anint field [Howard-ThePubb] (like passing in '123a' would only store '123', etc...[sanderson] Howard - that is left to the query. THe database treatdseverything as a string. [Howard-ThePubb] similar to what other databases do....just wonderingsal> Dylan, I will need resources from the community to put thistogether[Howard-ThePubb] been using SQL Server a lot for a while now and guess itook a lot of [Howard-ThePubb] its features for granted..that's all [scontreras] If you store your data in an XML document, that iscertainly possible [scontreras] using validation against an XMLSchema (XSD) document. [dylan] This question is for SAL: is it possible to do a chat like thison a [dylan] monthly or bi-monthly basis, based off of specific topics? [BrainScan] This has been a valiant and valuable first effort. I, as aWebDNA developer, [BrainScan]greatly appreciate the new focus on marketing and developerrelations. [BrainScan]Gotta go earn my allowance now... Thanks.sal> Yes, I will discuss this with Doug and let you know[scontreras] XPath would be your query language in that case, Howard.sal> The Forum will be operational soon as well[Howard-ThePubb] ok..thanks steve[scontreras] My pleasure.sal> would be a great place to have these types of discussions so otherdevelopers can see what sal> WebDNA is all about[dylan] Sal - if we get something preliminary up soon, that at lestaccepts submissions, [dylan] that would be priority[Rob_Marquardt] A permanent #WebDNA channel on IRC, perhaps [scontreras] I will be posting this to the talklist after we conclude,FYI. This transcript... [dylan] I like the idea of being able to view based off of topics.sal> We will be using The Pubb created by Howard for the Forumsal> It will be open soonsal> What I do need is a collaborative effort for content[Howard-ThePubb] once you guys get the cvs working on the site, i havetwo great projects that i can add to it[dylan] Is there a staging area which is accesible via ftp for us totest new modules before [dylan] they are intergreated into thre resouce center?sal> not yet, but that is a good suggestion[dylan] For content you otta do things like present specific challengesto the group, [dylan] like build a chat with flash mx and webDNAsal> I will work on that[sanderson] I think it is time for me to get back to implementing thenew features! [sanderson] Is has been great chating with you all.sal> Thanks Scott[scontreras] I should get back t work as well. :)[dylan] bye scott[Howard-ThePubb] i as well...thanks all[Rob_Marquardt] 5.0 beta next week Tuesday, then? ; )sal> I agree with you Dylan--------------------------------------- END OF CHAT- Ben SwihartGotricities Network-------------------------------------------------------------This message is sent to you because you are subscribed to the mailing list .To unsubscribe, E-mail to: To switch to the DIGEST mode, E-mail to Web Archive of this list is at: http://search.smithmicro.com/ Associated Messages, from the most recent to the oldest:

Re: 2002 08 15 chat, reformatted (Dylan Wood 2002)
2002 08 15 chat, reformatted (Ben Swihart 2002)

I found the chat transcript to be impossible to read.. Not sure ifanyone else experienced that. Here's a reformatted version. You canalso get this on the web:http://gotricities.net/webdna/webDNAchat20020815.txtsal> I would like to say thank you to all of you for participating sal> in this first WebDNA Chat Session. Before we begin, I would like tosal> introduce the members of the SMSI Team.sal> Doug Deck-Sales and Marketing Director. sal> Philip BoneSteele-Director of E-Business Products and Services sal> Scott Anderson-Senior WebDNA Engineer Steve Contreras-Senior sal> Software Engineer/Architect Brian Looper-Project Managersal> And I am Salvatore D'Anna. I will be the moderator todaysal> I would like to thank all of you for attending.sal> The main purpose of this chat is to give you the opportunity to sal> update you on what we are planning and to get your feedback and sal> participation throughout this process. Here is the procedure forthis sal> chat session. I will outline for you my vision for the WebDNAResource sal> Center. When I am finished, Doug Deck will outline our Partnership sal> Program. Finally, it will be your turn to ask questions. Thequestions sal> will be asked in aphabetical order by username. I will ask the userone sal> by one if they have any questions.sal> Let's begin:sal> Concept: The Proof is in the DNA WebDNA WebDNA Resource Centersal> There are two main purposes for the WebDNA Resource Center The sal> first is to increase awareness in the IT Industry, mainly thesal> Network Administrators who will have to maintain the servers. sal> Currently, they are more inclined to stick with what they know.sal> The second is to increase our Developer Community by providingsal> information that will convince other developers that WebDNA is a sal> faster and better solution in the long run.sal> Network Administrators and Developers both have a common goal whichsal> can be defined in three letters ROI This WebDNA Resource Center'ssal> main purpose is to prove to everyone that nothing can beat WebDNAwhen sal> it comes to their Return on Investment. I have compiled a list ofitems sal> that I think are crucial for the WebDNA Resource Center MainSections of site:sal> Forums-This has been provided by The Pubbsal> Application Showcase including Demossal> Web Ringsal> Certified Partnerssal> White Paperssal> News and Eventssal> Productssal> Downloadssal> Home Page should have the following updated articles: sal> Getting Started Guidesal> WebDNA Best Practicessal> From Simple to Complex-The WebDNa Tutorialssal> The Power of WebDNA Applicationssal> Data Management in WebDNAsal> XML Tags in WebDNAsal> Sample Appssal> We will also need to provide the following:sal> White Paperssal> Product Evaluation Guidesal> ROI Guidesal> Multiple How To'ssal> Case Studiessal> and WebDNA Upgrade Pathsal> As you can see, there is a lot of work to be done which will sal> benefit all of us in the long run. I will need your participation sal> throughout this process and look forward to working with all ofsal> you to make this a reality.sal> I will now turn the forum over to Doug Deck to describe the WebDNAsal> Partner Program.[DougDeck] There are two main parts to the Partner Program [DougDeck] WebDNA Dev I members receive a 25% discount on all SMSIproducts. [DougDeck] The requirements are that the member post to the forum, [DougDeck] participate in our webring, and must have at purchased at the[DougDeck] minimum 1 license from SMSI [DougDeck] WebDNA Dev II members [DougDeck] receive a 30% discount on all SMSI products. They will have [DougDeck] access to training materials and will receive leads from SMSI[DougDeck] for consulting work. They will be required to be Certifiedby [DougDeck] SMSI and will have a yet to be determined minimum licensepurchases [DougDeck] per year. They will also participate in the forums andprovide demo [DougDeck] applications as well. [DougDeck] Dev I and Dev II areplaceholder [DougDeck] names- suggest others if you want. [DougDeck] Once all ofthis is [DougDeck] formalized, I will send anyone interested an Application for [DougDeck] either level.sal> Thanks Dougsal> There is a lot of information here that we will provide in paperformatsal> I would like to begin the question answer session[jayv2] I don't think this is productive in a text chat[jayv2] maybe it should have been done in a voice broadcastsal> This is our first one[bswihart] Well, sounds like some level of progress, at least.sal> things will improve as we move forward. I would like to begin with sal> BrainScan. Please ask any questions you may have.[bswihart] Is there a plan for open source cvs development on scripts? [bswihart] A sourceforge-like area? [BrainScan] What will the forums and webring consist of? I welcome the [BrainScan] concept of the developer program but want more informationon [BrainScan] my responsibilities as a certified developer. [BrainScan] I'm also interested in a venue for marketing third-partyWebDNA tools.sal> Yes, all of that is what we are building in the Resource Centersal> The WebRing will have a list of all WebDNA sites [DougDeck] There will be a benefits/ requirements matrix outy next week,but [DougDeck] the first level is an easy to get into level with littlerequirement. [DougDeck] Second level has SOME $$ requirement, but not unreasonable. [BrainScan] Will the licence purchase requirements include licensespurchased [BrainScan] by our clients? [DougDeck] Licenses you purchase for your clients are included, as will [DougDeck] be those they bought through you. [bswihart] Why rely on a webDNA forum/architecture for this? I mean,you're [bswihart] using Java to run this chat. There's no shame in usingphp/MySQL [bswihart] to properly run a high-end content site. [BrainScan] So developers become resellers? Does this mean we sell toour [BrainScan] clients at retail and keep the discount we get as ourcommission?sal> We want to show WebDNA can be used to build anything[bswihart] As far as I'm concerned, webDNA is for small-scalefast-turnaround [bswihart] widgets and is inappropriate for serious projects beyondbasic web [bswihart] sites and apps. Has the documentation been re-written? [Howard-ThePubb] i don't think that the current documentation needs tobe [Howard-ThePubb] re-written --- from a syntax manual, i think it isrelatively [Howard-ThePubb] good. What you need a programming manual...somethingcompletely [Howard-ThePubb] different. [scontreras] BrainScan's question regarding CVS... [scontreras] refer to http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/ for an exampleof [scontreras] a public CVS site... for collaberative development efforts.[scontreras] This is something we *can* do in the future. [pbonesteele] On this issue of 'scale': we are all working towardsexpanding [pbonesteele] the capabilities to enable all of you to address broadermarkets and solutionssal> grayloon[grayloon] How do you become certified?[scontreras] We are working on a CMS/CVS/RCS system for the 5.0 release.[scontreras] Presumably we would use this to drive a public CVS site... [DougDeck] Level I wil only need profile information to join theprogram. [DougDeck] Level II will have certification options. Once that isavailable, [DougDeck] those certified will be eligible to receive leades from us.[DougDeck] No specifics yet.[pbonesteele] We are adding significant support for XML, XSLT, theability [pbonesteele] to build application logic as a Web Service, ContentManagement, [pbonesteele] etc., needed to address broader needssal> howard[bswihart] Well, good. I have about 50 applications that I really wantto [bswihart] put out there for everyone to use. It's ridiculous thatthere are [bswihart] so few resources... webDNA developers have to solve everyproblem [bswihart] from scratch, getting tidbits here and there from the mailinglist. [bswihart] There should be something like 1000 applications ready to useand [bswihart] fully open source if the webDNA devleoper communityparticipated. [Howard-ThePubb] how likely is it that we'll see either a simplistic [Howard-ThePubb] development IDE or commandline parser that willexpedite [Howard-ThePubb] development time by catching syntax errors faster?simply [Howard-ThePubb] testing in a browser by cut/pasting sections justdoesn't do it[jayv2] Has there been any consideration to OpenSourcing all of WebDNA? [sanderson] We are working on a WebDNA debugger which will allow you tostep [sanderson] through the WebDNA context as they are parsed. [Howard-ThePubb] that sounds great....what's the ETA on it and what arethe [Howard-ThePubb] expected platforms that would be on?sal> We can open this up to multiple questions[pbonesteele] Open sourcing hasn't been really discussed ... though ifthere's [pbonesteele] a viable business model in it, we would welcome your input[sanderson] The debugger will be java based with socket 'hooks' into theWebDNA engine. [jayv2] sorry - I was out of turn -- I have had connection issues...this chat thing [Howard-ThePubb] sounds good scott...is this more of a 2003 feature, orsooner? [scontreras] Adding to Scott's response... the debugger will be, ineffect, an embedded IDE.[bswihart] It seems that webDNA is following a model similar toAllaire/Macromedia or [bswihart] even Microsoft. It's a personal choice... whether to gowith OS solutions or paid... [bswihart] I think that if you bought webDNA, then you made your choiceclear![pbonesteele] The IDE is planned for inclusion in our end-of-Q4 productrelease. [sanderson] Planned to be included with the first WebDNA 5.0 release.Early 2003[Howard-ThePubb] thanks[jayv2] already a little disagreement on schedules...sal> We will continue this chat beyond the 2:30 end time[jtyler] Any eta on v5 beta/alpha or at least an update on what toexpect for new [jtyler] contexts/features (beyond marketing kinds of things) [Rob_Marquardt] Speaking of 5.0 -- I came in late, so this may have beenaddressed -- [Rob_Marquardt] are there any features of 5.0 you can disclose at thistime? [bswihart] Will there someday be a way to run webDNA applications on anyplatform? [bswihart] Or at least a platform that doesn't have the full webDNApackage installed? [pbonesteele] on the question of BETA: in Q4 ... specific dates to beannounced as [pbonesteele] we get further into development and have functionalityready to test [jayv2] since the developers are your resellers, is there going to be acoop marketing fund?[pbonesteele] 5.0 Feature list: we've talked about this in the Talk Listbefore, [pbonesteele] but in summary, several engine extensions such as a'sandbox', etc., but the BIG[pbonesteele] additions are extensive XML/XSLT extensions, ContentManagement, Web Services, [pbonesteele] and the IDE [DougDeck] No immediate plans for a co-op fund, but it is beingconsidered.[BrainScan] Will the concept of user-defined functions with local-scopevariables be [BrainScan] included in version 5? [pbonesteele] The Intranet Edition will be end of Q3 ... again featureswere posted [pbonesteele] to the Talk List awhile back. [bswihart] Recommendation: Send this chat log to the webDNA Talk List.sal> We will do that[scontreras] Will do, bswihart...[sanderson] Local scope variables will be added to the [include]context. As [sanderson] well as scope resolution operators [jayv2] sorry - dumped for the last time... this chat stuff is unusablefor me - sorry[Howard-ThePubb] scott - you mentioned scope -- is there hope then toresolve scope [Howard-ThePubb] issues like with [date] when you're in a [cart]context? [bswihart] Re-posting the question: will webDNA be able to run on otherplatforms, [bswihart] perhaps in an independent CGI space? Have you everconsidered some kind of [bswihart] portability like this?[sanderson] exactly i.e. [::date] vs. [date][scontreras] We are also adding a new concept to various newcontexts/tags... [scontreras] the ability to create object reference variables. [Rob_Marquardt] What do the extensive XML/XSLT extensions bring to thetable, [Rob_Marquardt] from a developer's standpoint? [BrainScan] Still looking for the ability to add my functions / macrosand access them[BrainScan] like [myfunction name=abc&total=75]... [Howard-ThePubb] back to the ide for a sec...any chance it will havinganything similar to [Howard-ThePubb] intellisense (to autocomplete as you're typing)... [scontreras] XML/XSLT will be the basis for remoting applications from amore [scontreras] arbitrary standpoint... think XML app servers and theirrelation to [scontreras] collaberative b2b applications. [Rob_Marquardt] Let me get my Buzzword to English dictionary... ; ) [sanderson] Brian - looking to enhance the existing [include] context toa point where [sanderson] it behaves much like user defined calls [scontreras] Inherent XML capabilites will also offer a new method ofpersisting[scontreras] data as well as a new method to query that data. [Rob_Marquardt] Will 5.0 include an XML parser, then? [scontreras] The CMS system will be built on XML/XSLT and incorporatesome Web Services stuff. [scontreras] It will.[sanderson] Rob-Yes [Rob_Marquardt] Excellent. [jtyler] there was talk of local scope variables (which is great), howabout user scope vars? [scontreras] As well as an XSL process and XPath resolver. [scontreras] XSL Processor, that is [sanderson] jtyler - an example?[pbonesteele] Yes ... 5.0 will include the XML parser and XSLTTranslator, along with the [pbonesteele] ability to build Web Services (UDDI, WSDL, and SOAPprotocols) on top of the underlying [pbonesteele] parser/translator [pbonesteele] As Steve mentioned, the entire Content Management will bebuilt on top of this [pbonesteele] as a remotable server side application [scontreras] FYI, XSLT is a great new feature that will allow fortransforming any XML-based [scontreras] markup into any text-based, user-defined format. [jtyler] in some similiar enviroments you can set a variable for a userthat can be [jtyler] retrieved for that particular user at anypoint. Think cart, butit's not a file [jtyler] just memory resident on the server, ussually key'd from acookie or url parameter. [scontreras] For example, one might transform raw HTML into a flat-fileor some other format.sal> Okay guys, we have about 2 more minutes[sanderson] jtyler- So this would be like session data? I haveconsidered this. You can implement [sanderson] this now using a cookie and a session database [Howard-ThePubb] How about data structures? Any chance we may see sometrue structures [Howard-ThePubb] (like arrays) that aren't just naming hacks [sanderson] howard - Yes, the array context is being completeed now. [Howard-ThePubb] any others? (queue/stack/list/etc..) or are we expectedto build our own [Howard-ThePubb] procedures around the array?[danstrong] sorry i'm latesal> Please know that you can contact any of us if you have furtherquestions.[DougDeck] Better late than never[jtyler] sanderson-Yes, I was just hoping for something not tied to adb, since [jtyler] they can get stagnant. Perhaps a server global var space and anew temp table would do this. [sanderson] One of the strengths of WebDNA is that it is 'firendly' tothose non-programmers [sanderson] who may not be aware of more complex data structuressal> Hi Dan[danstrong] howdy[scontreras] We've considered exposing other data-structures, such ashashtables, stacks, etc. [Howard-ThePubb] i understand...but the lack of more well defineddatastuctures obfuscates [Howard-ThePubb] code and makes it less maintainable, and therefore,less worthwhile to program [sanderson] Still...I am amazed at how some WebDNA programmers canovercome those missing [sanderson] 'elements'. But I think we can start introducing them. [DougDeck] Thanks for joining us. We'll let you know about future chatson the Talk List. [sanderson] Bye Doug. I'll hang around for a few.[scontreras] Key word being considered, though. Suffice it to saythat these topics [scontreras] are being discussed and considered on a daily basis. [BrainScan] Will arrays be multidimensional? sortable? [Howard-ThePubb] right...i'm not sayign that it can't be done...i'm justtalking aobut [Howard-ThePubb] long-term maintenance of code with using theseprogramming hacks [Howard-ThePubb] to make up for missing features[sanderson] Current the new array context is limited to 5 dimensions.[dylan] anyone chatting?[sanderson] It has been requested that some of our iterative contexts be'sortable' [sanderson] which is what led to the creation of the [table] context. [Rob_Marquardt] How would these array variables appear in code?[var(n)]? [Rob_Marquardt] Big fan of [table] here, btw [sanderson] Rob - something like that. I do not want to get into thedetails, as things may change a bit [jtyler] anychance we'll see a join context for joining multiple db's,similiar to join in sql? [sanderson] THanks, I think the [table] context is very usefull [Howard-ThePubb] while i know that smithmicro doesn't like to releasenumbers, [Howard-ThePubb] and chance it can release percentages...more to thepoint, from a 3rd [Howard-ThePubb] party developer stand point, any chance i can find outwhat the [Howard-ThePubb] percentage of licenses are between different versions(3 vs 4) as [Howard-ThePubb] well as a percentage of how many of thsoe are the samepeople vs different...[Howard-ThePubb] this helps in deciding which version to code for(larger userbase vs. better features)[sanderson] jtyler - that is on the list of 'things that would be niceto add' , [sanderson] but that is not slated for 5.0 [jtyler] okay, thanks scott, just trying to get our data normalized alittle bit. I think [table] will help a lot. [DougDeck] Howard- don't know the answer. Will find out though. [Howard-ThePubb] thanks doug [sanderson] With the introduction of the XSLT parser, it is alsopossible to use XPATH to make some complex queries[jtyler] Must run, thank you everyone at smithmicro for the info. [sanderson] Bye.[dylan] bye[scontreras] one last comment on data-structures... [Howard-ThePubb] sal - one quick note -- it looks like you guys probablyhad all that [Howard-ThePubb] initial stuff typed out (in word probably b/c of thosehigh-ascii[Howard-ThePubb] characters) before copy/pasting it...you probablyshould have posted [Howard-ThePubb] those docs prior to the chat for perusing and then madethis chat more of a chat [Howard-ThePubb] from the beginning sal> I agree with you Howard[dylan] before I miss my chance, I ws interested in talking a littleabout the webDNA community, or needs, etc [scontreras] With the new XMLParse context it will be possible torepresent a tree-like structure... [scontreras] XMLParse will be a context that allows for creating andparsing a document dynamically.sal> Now I know what works best[scontreras] So you could, for example, do the following: e.g. [xmlparse] value value1a value1b >[/XMLParse][Howard-ThePubb] enticing...[scontreras] and then access that and reparse as necessary to add newnodes and attributes/change values... [Howard-ThePubb] ooh ooh ooh....any chance there may be an option to addtype/constraint info directly to a db in v5.0 [Howard-ThePubb] per field [scontreras] You're refering to type-validation now :) [scontreras] That is an XML feature. [Howard-ThePubb] i know what you're referring to, but that's not whatI'm referring too...[Howard-ThePubb] right now we need something like eqMYFIELDtype=int [Howard-ThePubb] it would be nice if we already defined in the db thatmy field is an int field [Howard-ThePubb] and not have to worry about that [Howard-ThePubb] it could also then take care of string data put into anint field [Howard-ThePubb] (like passing in '123a' would only store '123', etc...[sanderson] Howard - that is left to the query. THe database treatdseverything as a string. [Howard-ThePubb] similar to what other databases do....just wonderingsal> Dylan, I will need resources from the community to put thistogether[Howard-ThePubb] been using SQL Server a lot for a while now and guess itook a lot of [Howard-ThePubb] its features for granted..that's all [scontreras] If you store your data in an XML document, that iscertainly possible [scontreras] using validation against an XMLSchema (XSD) document. [dylan] This question is for SAL: is it possible to do a chat like thison a [dylan] monthly or bi-monthly basis, based off of specific topics? [BrainScan] This has been a valiant and valuable first effort. I, as aWebDNA developer, [BrainScan]greatly appreciate the new focus on marketing and developerrelations. [BrainScan]Gotta go earn my allowance now... Thanks.sal> Yes, I will discuss this with Doug and let you know[scontreras] XPath would be your query language in that case, Howard.sal> The Forum will be operational soon as well[Howard-ThePubb] ok..thanks steve[scontreras] My pleasure.sal> would be a great place to have these types of discussions so otherdevelopers can see what sal> WebDNA is all about[dylan] Sal - if we get something preliminary up soon, that at lestaccepts submissions, [dylan] that would be priority[Rob_Marquardt] A permanent #WebDNA channel on IRC, perhaps [scontreras] I will be posting this to the talklist after we conclude,FYI. This transcript... [dylan] I like the idea of being able to view based off of topics.sal> We will be using The Pubb created by Howard for the Forumsal> It will be open soonsal> What I do need is a collaborative effort for content[Howard-ThePubb] once you guys get the cvs working on the site, i havetwo great projects that i can add to it[dylan] Is there a staging area which is accesible via ftp for us totest new modules before [dylan] they are intergreated into thre resouce center?sal> not yet, but that is a good suggestion[dylan] For content you otta do things like present specific challengesto the group, [dylan] like build a chat with flash mx and webDNAsal> I will work on that[sanderson] I think it is time for me to get back to implementing thenew features! [sanderson] Is has been great chating with you all.sal> Thanks Scott[scontreras] I should get back t work as well. :)[dylan] bye scott[Howard-ThePubb] i as well...thanks all[Rob_Marquardt] 5.0 beta next week Tuesday, then? ; )sal> I agree with you Dylan--------------------------------------- END OF CHAT- Ben SwihartGotricities Network-------------------------------------------------------------This message is sent to you because you are subscribed to the mailing list .To unsubscribe, E-mail to: To switch to the DIGEST mode, E-mail to Web Archive of this list is at: http://search.smithmicro.com/ Ben Swihart

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2002 08 15 chat, reformatted

2002

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