Re: [WebDNA] What does PHP(5) has, that Webdna hasn't

This WebDNA talk-list message is from

2009

It keeps the original formatting. numero = 102761
interpreted = N
texte = Let me start with this:http://www.webdna.us/page.dna?numero=129I have evolved my business through an interesting business model. I only have one customer that pays for their own brand new, from scratch programming, and recently I had them purchase their own backup server for their location. I still host their sites even though they have the hardware and internet connection to do it themselves now.Here's the bottom line guys... this aforementioned client has paid me more than $500,000 in development since 2003. They knew they wanted a multi million dollar website, but they didn't want the multi million dollar price. They knew what they were getting into. The only assurance they wanted was to know that if I ever went out of business that they could find at least 1 person to take over the code and host their websites. But now they can do it on their own.If you land a big customer like this, they will be happy with the lower development cost, and finding another host is the least of their worries.On the other hand, I have a different approach with smaller customers.The typical sites we put together cost between $4000 - $6000 for a package. In the past 10 years we (mostly I) have built a CMS using WebDNA. It has a lot of features, and it does almost anything that is needed for a retail business. It also has features for professional service industries. We tell people up front that they are buying a "hosted" software package that will run their website or their intranet. It's a nice, simple to use CMS, but with some very fancy features. We tell everyone that if they leave our hosting we will be able to "export" a copy of their site, but they can't take the CMS. Honestly, for our normal customers, the CMS issue is usually the least of their worries. They usually are more interested in the features we already have that will save them custom development with PHP or .NET if they go with the other guys.Matthew A Perosi JewelerWebsites.com------------------------------by Psi Prime-------Senior Web Developer 323 Union Blvd. Totowa, NJ 07512Pre-Sales: 888.872.0274Service: 973.413.8213Training: 973.413.8214Fax: 973.413.8217http://www.jewelerwebsites.comhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psi_Prime%2C_Inchttp://www.psiprime.comGil Poulsen wrote:> Just wanted to get my $0.02 in here. At the moment I'm not doing any > active development in WebDNA but I've been using it since 1998 or > thereabouts, and everything Matthew and the other list members have > stated here is true. There are also numerous other reasons that WebDNA > is head and shoulders above any other development platform at least > from my perspective, and seeing what Donovan and the new WedDNA > Software Corporation have been doing over the past months has been > very exciting, especially after watching SmithMicro essentially bury > the product.>> But my concern, over the past few years in particular, is that if I > create a WebDNA-dependent site for a client, and at some future time > they decide to move it or use another host, they essentially have a > pile of useless code that no one is going to be able to work with > unless the Web hoste to which they transfer it happens to already have > (unlikely) WebDNA installed, or purchases a WebDNA license. And if > we're talking Dreamhost or GoDaddy or Xinet or the like, that's > probably not going to happen. Then the client feels like they paid a > lot of money for a useless set of Web pages that now need to be > completely recoded, typically in PHP because that's ubiquitous and > freely available.>> So I'm curious to get other developers' perspectives on this. Does > anyone ever feel "guilty" creating a WebDNA-based site for a client, > knowing that they've pretty much locked them into staying on their own > server? Or am I making a big deal out of something that's really not > an issue, in the sense that if I deliver a site that works the way the > client wants it to work, whether or not the code is portable is > irrelevant? Does anyone explain in writing to their cllent(s) that the > site they've built for them is essentially not going to run on any > other Web server out there unless they can convince the host to > purchase and install a copy of WebDNA?>> There have already been a few times where I was approached to put a > site together and submitted a proposal, knowing I could get it turned > around more quickly than most and bring it in at a reasonable price, > both thanks to WebDNA, but the client insisted on hosting with > Dreamhost and that was non-negotiable, so situations like that > basically cause me to lose work. I've hosted my own sites at various > times, but maintaining and monitoring a Web server that needs to be up > 24/7 is not, at least to me, the best situation to get involved in > when you're a one-person shop.>>> On Jun 17, 2009, at 1:23 PM, Matthew Bohne wrote:>>> The number one reason is development time. I have spent hundreds of >> hours trying to duplicate simple functionality of WebDNA in PHP. I >> have a library of some functions and classes (including a shopping >> cart that I have about 300 hours in, and it still doesn't do >> everything as easily as WebDNA). I have spent easily three times as >> long on a PHP site than a WebDNA site. Code takes time to write and >> test. More code takes more time. The hard part has already been >> done in WebDNA, the functions are simple and easy to use. There are >> no huge libraries of functions and classes to do fancy things because >> there doesn't need to be. There is no huge collection of classes for >> connecting to a database and pulling out information... it's built >> in. The database administrator is built in. While we're on the >> subject of databases... It's text. Need to manually update a record >> while you're testing? Would you rather load up phpMyAdmin, do some >> command line SQL, or open the database in a text editor?>>>> To address the learning curve... If you know PHP, WebDNA is a breeze >> to learn. Most developers wirth their salt know multiple languages >> anyway, so learning a new one is a breeze. I learned the basics of >> WebDNA in two weeks.>>>> WebDNA programing is fast. You end up spending less time doing the >> same tasks. It's about efficiency.>>>> Lawrence Banahan wrote:>>> Hi All,>>>>>> I'm using Webdna for almost 7 years and don't what to change...>>> But it is impossible to find trainee that would accept to learn it...>>> I also have partners who would like us to pass the river and get to >>> php/MySql.>>> When I have a look at MySql it looks horrible to me, but is it more >>> powerfull than Webcatalog?>>> I know about http://webdna.us/page.dna?numero=37>>> But what other reason could I say to keep going on Webdna...>>>>>> Thank's for your Help>>>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------->>> This message is sent to you because you are subscribed to>>> the mailing list .>>> To unsubscribe, E-mail to: >>> archives: http://mail.webdna.us/list/talk@webdna.us>>> old archives: http://dev.webdna.us/TalkListArchive/>>>>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------->> This message is sent to you because you are subscribed to>> the mailing list .>> To unsubscribe, E-mail to: >> archives: http://mail.webdna.us/list/talk@webdna.us>> old archives: http://dev.webdna.us/TalkListArchive/>>>> -- > Gil Poulsen, Mac Wirehead>> ************************> AltiM@c Consulting> 23 Marco Polo Court> Franklin Park, NJ 08823-1703> Voice: 609-359-0103> ************************>>> ---------------------------------------------------------> This message is sent to you because you are subscribed to> the mailing list .> To unsubscribe, E-mail to: > archives: http://mail.webdna.us/list/talk@webdna.us> old archives: http://dev.webdna.us/TalkListArchive/>> Associated Messages, from the most recent to the oldest:

Re: [WebDNA] What does PHP(5) has, that Webdna hasn't (Terry Wilson 2009)
Re: [WebDNA] What does PHP(5) has, that Webdna hasn't (Donovan Brooke 2009)
Re: [WebDNA] What does PHP(5) has, that Webdna hasn't (Lawrence Banahan 2009)
Re: [WebDNA] What does PHP(5) has, that Webdna hasn't (Frank Nordberg 2009)
Re: [WebDNA] What does PHP(5) has, that Webdna hasn't ("Psi Prime, Matthew A Perosi " 2009)
Re: [WebDNA] What does PHP(5) has, that Webdna hasn't (Donovan Brooke 2009)
RE: [WebDNA] What does PHP(5) has, that Webdna hasn't ("Michael A. DeLorenzo" 2009)
Re: [WebDNA] What does PHP(5) has, that Webdna hasn't (Terry Wilson 2009)
Re: [WebDNA] What does PHP(5) has, that Webdna hasn't (christophe.billiottet@webdna.us 2009)
RE: [WebDNA] What does PHP(5) has, that Webdna hasn't ("Tana Adams" 2009)
Re: [WebDNA] What does PHP(5) has, that Webdna hasn't (Gil Poulsen 2009)
RE: [WebDNA] What does PHP(5) has, that Webdna hasn't ("Michael A. DeLorenzo" 2009)
Re: [WebDNA] What does PHP(5) has, that Webdna hasn't (christophe.billiottet@webdna.us 2009)
Re: [WebDNA] What does PHP(5) has, that Webdna hasn't (Matthew Bohne 2009)
[WebDNA] What does PHP(5) has, that Webdna hasn't (Lawrence Banahan 2009)

Let me start with this:http://www.webdna.us/page.dna?numero=129I have evolved my business through an interesting business model. I only have one customer that pays for their own brand new, from scratch programming, and recently I had them purchase their own backup server for their location. I still host their sites even though they have the hardware and internet connection to do it themselves now.Here's the bottom line guys... this aforementioned client has paid me more than $500,000 in development since 2003. They knew they wanted a multi million dollar website, but they didn't want the multi million dollar price. They knew what they were getting into. The only assurance they wanted was to know that if I ever went out of business that they could find at least 1 person to take over the code and host their websites. But now they can do it on their own.If you land a big customer like this, they will be happy with the lower development cost, and finding another host is the least of their worries.On the other hand, I have a different approach with smaller customers.The typical sites we put together cost between $4000 - $6000 for a package. In the past 10 years we (mostly I) have built a CMS using WebDNA. It has a lot of features, and it does almost anything that is needed for a retail business. It also has features for professional service industries. We tell people up front that they are buying a "hosted" software package that will run their website or their intranet. It's a nice, simple to use CMS, but with some very fancy features. We tell everyone that if they leave our hosting we will be able to "export" a copy of their site, but they can't take the CMS. Honestly, for our normal customers, the CMS issue is usually the least of their worries. They usually are more interested in the features we already have that will save them custom development with PHP or .NET if they go with the other guys.Matthew A Perosi JewelerWebsites.com------------------------------by Psi Prime-------Senior Web Developer 323 Union Blvd. Totowa, NJ 07512Pre-Sales: 888.872.0274Service: 973.413.8213Training: 973.413.8214Fax: 973.413.8217http://www.jewelerwebsites.comhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psi_Prime%2C_Inchttp://www.psiprime.comGil Poulsen wrote:> Just wanted to get my $0.02 in here. At the moment I'm not doing any > active development in WebDNA but I've been using it since 1998 or > thereabouts, and everything Matthew and the other list members have > stated here is true. There are also numerous other reasons that WebDNA > is head and shoulders above any other development platform at least > from my perspective, and seeing what Donovan and the new WedDNA > Software Corporation have been doing over the past months has been > very exciting, especially after watching SmithMicro essentially bury > the product.>> But my concern, over the past few years in particular, is that if I > create a WebDNA-dependent site for a client, and at some future time > they decide to move it or use another host, they essentially have a > pile of useless code that no one is going to be able to work with > unless the Web hoste to which they transfer it happens to already have > (unlikely) WebDNA installed, or purchases a WebDNA license. And if > we're talking Dreamhost or GoDaddy or Xinet or the like, that's > probably not going to happen. Then the client feels like they paid a > lot of money for a useless set of Web pages that now need to be > completely recoded, typically in PHP because that's ubiquitous and > freely available.>> So I'm curious to get other developers' perspectives on this. Does > anyone ever feel "guilty" creating a WebDNA-based site for a client, > knowing that they've pretty much locked them into staying on their own > server? Or am I making a big deal out of something that's really not > an issue, in the sense that if I deliver a site that works the way the > client wants it to work, whether or not the code is portable is > irrelevant? Does anyone explain in writing to their cllent(s) that the > site they've built for them is essentially not going to run on any > other Web server out there unless they can convince the host to > purchase and install a copy of WebDNA?>> There have already been a few times where I was approached to put a > site together and submitted a proposal, knowing I could get it turned > around more quickly than most and bring it in at a reasonable price, > both thanks to WebDNA, but the client insisted on hosting with > Dreamhost and that was non-negotiable, so situations like that > basically cause me to lose work. I've hosted my own sites at various > times, but maintaining and monitoring a Web server that needs to be up > 24/7 is not, at least to me, the best situation to get involved in > when you're a one-person shop.>>> On Jun 17, 2009, at 1:23 PM, Matthew Bohne wrote:>>> The number one reason is development time. I have spent hundreds of >> hours trying to duplicate simple functionality of WebDNA in PHP. I >> have a library of some functions and classes (including a shopping >> cart that I have about 300 hours in, and it still doesn't do >> everything as easily as WebDNA). I have spent easily three times as >> long on a PHP site than a WebDNA site. Code takes time to write and >> test. More code takes more time. The hard part has already been >> done in WebDNA, the functions are simple and easy to use. There are >> no huge libraries of functions and classes to do fancy things because >> there doesn't need to be. There is no huge collection of classes for >> connecting to a database and pulling out information... it's built >> in. The database administrator is built in. While we're on the >> subject of databases... It's text. Need to manually update a record >> while you're testing? Would you rather load up phpMyAdmin, do some >> command line SQL, or open the database in a text editor?>>>> To address the learning curve... If you know PHP, WebDNA is a breeze >> to learn. Most developers wirth their salt know multiple languages >> anyway, so learning a new one is a breeze. I learned the basics of >> WebDNA in two weeks.>>>> WebDNA programing is fast. You end up spending less time doing the >> same tasks. It's about efficiency.>>>> Lawrence Banahan wrote:>>> Hi All,>>>>>> I'm using Webdna for almost 7 years and don't what to change...>>> But it is impossible to find trainee that would accept to learn it...>>> I also have partners who would like us to pass the river and get to >>> php/MySql.>>> When I have a look at MySql it looks horrible to me, but is it more >>> powerfull than Webcatalog?>>> I know about http://webdna.us/page.dna?numero=37>>> But what other reason could I say to keep going on Webdna...>>>>>> Thank's for your Help>>>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------->>> This message is sent to you because you are subscribed to>>> the mailing list .>>> To unsubscribe, E-mail to: >>> archives: http://mail.webdna.us/list/talk@webdna.us>>> old archives: http://dev.webdna.us/TalkListArchive/>>>>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------->> This message is sent to you because you are subscribed to>> the mailing list .>> To unsubscribe, E-mail to: >> archives: http://mail.webdna.us/list/talk@webdna.us>> old archives: http://dev.webdna.us/TalkListArchive/>>>> -- > Gil Poulsen, Mac Wirehead>> ************************> AltiM@c Consulting> 23 Marco Polo Court> Franklin Park, NJ 08823-1703> Voice: 609-359-0103> ************************>>> ---------------------------------------------------------> This message is sent to you because you are subscribed to> the mailing list .> To unsubscribe, E-mail to: > archives: http://mail.webdna.us/list/talk@webdna.us> old archives: http://dev.webdna.us/TalkListArchive/>> "Psi Prime, Matthew A Perosi "

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Re: [WebDNA] What does PHP(5) has, that Webdna hasn't

2009

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