Re: No one gets my client's code for free ...
This WebDNA talk-list message is from 2005
It keeps the original formatting.
numero = 61941
interpreted = N
texte = Hi Charles, I've thought of building examples but this would force me to invest even more money in the webdna portion of my business, and I still have not recovered my investment to train the 5 programmers I've already trained in webdna. Besides, I cannot help wondering why I should have to do this in the first place ... I have never once been asked to provide coding examples for my PHP clients, instead they just hire me if they want some PHP work done -- whereas even though the webdna community has extensive knowledge of my webdna background and experience, they are the ones who demand coding examples from me. Why do you suppose there is such a dramatic difference in behavior between these two groups? I wonder which software you would support if you were in my shoes? I hate to say this but I also believe that even if I did produce some examples, they still won't be "good enough" for the people who claim that this is the reason why they have not hired me. It seems to me that anyone who is seriously interested in outsourcing their webdna work would never use "no examples" as an excuse to avoid hiring us, especially when our rates are so low. Instead they would jump at the chance to have their work done for only $10 an hour by a team that's been trained by one of the world's expert webdna programmers ... right? Wrong! No, I think there is too little demand for wholesale webdna programming to support my efforts. I hate to abandon webdna because I thought I could make a great living over here by supporting dozens or hundreds of people on this list with super cheap webdna programming services -- but I no longer believe that this is possible or even likely. I have no reason to fire my webdna programmers because surprisingly enough we have more webdna work than we can handle right now. But I think this is a fluke, not an indication of any long term changes. So if I'm correct then I will not be training any new webdna programmers, and when I cannot keep my current programmers busy with webdna work any more, they will simply "disappear" .. like extinct dinosaurs who couldn't survive the dramatic change in their living environment either. Natural selection is at work here, in all its splendid glory. Sincerely, Kenneth Grome www.kengrome.com On May 6, 2005, at 19:45, Charles Kline wrote: > Ken, > > Just a suggestion of course, but perhaps your programmers could put > together some kind of widget that you could distribute to the > community here un-encrypted. Sort of a demo kind of thing. I am not > suggesting anything elaborate, but just something that would > demonstrate the skills and programming style of your team. > > For myself, if I was ever to outsource and application, I would want > to make sure I was getting high quality code back that would not be a > headache to modify if/when the time came for me to do some updates or > edit your work. > > Just me 2 cents. > > - Charles > > > On May 5, 2005, at 11:37 PM, Kenneth Grome wrote: > >> Jesse, >> >> My non-webdna clients have no problem hiring us immediately when they >> see our rates. It is only a few of the people on this list (you in >> particular) who seem to expect me to hand over numerous examples of >> unencrypted webdna code that we have developed for other clients -- >> code that you have never paid for and have no right to possess or >> even see! >> >> The code you're demanding belongs to OTHER CLIENTS who have bought >> and paid for it. I'm not going to give you anything that belongs to >> someone else just to prove that my programmers can do the job ... and >> if that's what you expect then you have very unreasonable >> expectations. >> >> How would you like it if we were to write some custom code for YOU, >> and then we just hand it over to one of your competitors FREE OF >> CHARGE simply to prove that we know how to write webdna? I'll be >> damned if I will ever dishonor any of my valued paying clients by >> doing such a thing! >> >> If you (or anyone else) want samples of my programmer's webdna code, >> you can hire us for a small cheap test project. Then you will have >> your own webdna code (produced by my programmers) to evaluate. Or >> get over your unreasonable paranoia and just hire us to do a REAL job >> for you, and then you will have all kinds of templates full of my >> programmer's webdna code to look at -- code that you will own >> yourself -- and code that I will never give to anyone else under any >> circumstances. >> >> Of course I have already explained all this in our private email >> communications, but you still seem to be stuck on the belief that you >> have the right to other people's webdna code "for evaluation >> purposes". I disagree. My decision in this matter is final. I will >> never give away anyone else's code to you, nor will I give your code >> to anyone else. So until I get a client who hires and pays me to >> hand over his code to you, I guess you're out of luck. >> >> Sincerely, >> Kenneth Grome >> www.kengrome.com >> >> >> >> >> >> On May 6, 2005, at 00:54, Jesse Proudman wrote: >> >> >>> Ken, >>> >>> It is hard for people to commit to this when you don't offer samples >>> of your programmers code, or anything else that we can gauge their >>> work on. Clients do not hire us without looking at our client list >>> and portfolio, and in the same respect, my company wouldn't hire you >>> without the same. I'm sure you would have substantially more luck >>> if you were able to produce something to show us... >>> >>> Just my opinion. >>> >>> On May 4, 2005, at 9:16 PM, Kenneth Grome wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Greetings webdna colleagues, >>>> >>>> As you well know, I've been an expert webdna programmer for most of >>>> the last decade. When I moved to the Philippines several years ago >>>> I continued working for my existing webdna clients, and I toyed >>>> around with the idea of creating an outsourcing business here. I >>>> was too busy with other ventures at that time to build an >>>> outsourcing business, but eventually things changed .... >>>> >>> >>> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------- >> This message is sent to you because you are subscribed to >> the mailing list
. >> To unsubscribe, E-mail to: >> To switch to the DIGEST mode, E-mail to >> >> Web Archive of this list is at: http://webdna.smithmicro.com/ >> > > -- > RightCode, Inc. > 900 Briggs Road #130 > Mount Laurel, NJ 08054 > P: 856.608.7908 > F: 856.439.0154 > E: ckline@rightcode.net > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > This message is sent to you because you are subscribed to > the mailing list . > To unsubscribe, E-mail to: > To switch to the DIGEST mode, E-mail to > > Web Archive of this list is at: http://webdna.smithmicro.com/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------- This message is sent to you because you are subscribed to the mailing list . To unsubscribe, E-mail to: To switch to the DIGEST mode, E-mail to Web Archive of this list is at: http://webdna.smithmicro.com/
Associated Messages, from the most recent to the oldest:
Hi Charles, I've thought of building examples but this would force me to invest even more money in the webdna portion of my business, and I still have not recovered my investment to train the 5 programmers I've already trained in webdna. Besides, I cannot help wondering why I should have to do this in the first place ... I have never once been asked to provide coding examples for my PHP clients, instead they just hire me if they want some PHP work done -- whereas even though the webdna community has extensive knowledge of my webdna background and experience, they are the ones who demand coding examples from me. Why do you suppose there is such a dramatic difference in behavior between these two groups? I wonder which software you would support if you were in my shoes? I hate to say this but I also believe that even if I did produce some examples, they still won't be "good enough" for the people who claim that this is the reason why they have not hired me. It seems to me that anyone who is seriously interested in outsourcing their webdna work would never use "no examples" as an excuse to avoid hiring us, especially when our rates are so low. Instead they would jump at the chance to have their work done for only $10 an hour by a team that's been trained by one of the world's expert webdna programmers ... right? Wrong! No, I think there is too little demand for wholesale webdna programming to support my efforts. I hate to abandon webdna because I thought I could make a great living over here by supporting dozens or hundreds of people on this list with super cheap webdna programming services -- but I no longer believe that this is possible or even likely. I have no reason to fire my webdna programmers because surprisingly enough we have more webdna work than we can handle right now. But I think this is a fluke, not an indication of any long term changes. So if I'm correct then I will not be training any new webdna programmers, and when I cannot keep my current programmers busy with webdna work any more, they will simply "disappear" .. like extinct dinosaurs who couldn't survive the dramatic change in their living environment either. Natural selection is at work here, in all its splendid glory. Sincerely, Kenneth Grome www.kengrome.com On May 6, 2005, at 19:45, Charles Kline wrote: > Ken, > > Just a suggestion of course, but perhaps your programmers could put > together some kind of widget that you could distribute to the > community here un-encrypted. Sort of a demo kind of thing. I am not > suggesting anything elaborate, but just something that would > demonstrate the skills and programming style of your team. > > For myself, if I was ever to outsource and application, I would want > to make sure I was getting high quality code back that would not be a > headache to modify if/when the time came for me to do some updates or > edit your work. > > Just me 2 cents. > > - Charles > > > On May 5, 2005, at 11:37 PM, Kenneth Grome wrote: > >> Jesse, >> >> My non-webdna clients have no problem hiring us immediately when they >> see our rates. It is only a few of the people on this list (you in >> particular) who seem to expect me to hand over numerous examples of >> unencrypted webdna code that we have developed for other clients -- >> code that you have never paid for and have no right to possess or >> even see! >> >> The code you're demanding belongs to OTHER CLIENTS who have bought >> and paid for it. I'm not going to give you anything that belongs to >> someone else just to prove that my programmers can do the job ... and >> if that's what you expect then you have very unreasonable >> expectations. >> >> How would you like it if we were to write some custom code for YOU, >> and then we just hand it over to one of your competitors FREE OF >> CHARGE simply to prove that we know how to write webdna? I'll be >> damned if I will ever dishonor any of my valued paying clients by >> doing such a thing! >> >> If you (or anyone else) want samples of my programmer's webdna code, >> you can hire us for a small cheap test project. Then you will have >> your own webdna code (produced by my programmers) to evaluate. Or >> get over your unreasonable paranoia and just hire us to do a REAL job >> for you, and then you will have all kinds of templates full of my >> programmer's webdna code to look at -- code that you will own >> yourself -- and code that I will never give to anyone else under any >> circumstances. >> >> Of course I have already explained all this in our private email >> communications, but you still seem to be stuck on the belief that you >> have the right to other people's webdna code "for evaluation >> purposes". I disagree. My decision in this matter is final. I will >> never give away anyone else's code to you, nor will I give your code >> to anyone else. So until I get a client who hires and pays me to >> hand over his code to you, I guess you're out of luck. >> >> Sincerely, >> Kenneth Grome >> www.kengrome.com >> >> >> >> >> >> On May 6, 2005, at 00:54, Jesse Proudman wrote: >> >> >>> Ken, >>> >>> It is hard for people to commit to this when you don't offer samples >>> of your programmers code, or anything else that we can gauge their >>> work on. Clients do not hire us without looking at our client list >>> and portfolio, and in the same respect, my company wouldn't hire you >>> without the same. I'm sure you would have substantially more luck >>> if you were able to produce something to show us... >>> >>> Just my opinion. >>> >>> On May 4, 2005, at 9:16 PM, Kenneth Grome wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Greetings webdna colleagues, >>>> >>>> As you well know, I've been an expert webdna programmer for most of >>>> the last decade. When I moved to the Philippines several years ago >>>> I continued working for my existing webdna clients, and I toyed >>>> around with the idea of creating an outsourcing business here. I >>>> was too busy with other ventures at that time to build an >>>> outsourcing business, but eventually things changed .... >>>> >>> >>> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------- >> This message is sent to you because you are subscribed to >> the mailing list . >> To unsubscribe, E-mail to: >> To switch to the DIGEST mode, E-mail to >> >> Web Archive of this list is at: http://webdna.smithmicro.com/ >> > > -- > RightCode, Inc. > 900 Briggs Road #130 > Mount Laurel, NJ 08054 > P: 856.608.7908 > F: 856.439.0154 > E: ckline@rightcode.net > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > This message is sent to you because you are subscribed to > the mailing list . > To unsubscribe, E-mail to: > To switch to the DIGEST mode, E-mail to > > Web Archive of this list is at: http://webdna.smithmicro.com/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------- This message is sent to you because you are subscribed to the mailing list . To unsubscribe, E-mail to: To switch to the DIGEST mode, E-mail to Web Archive of this list is at: http://webdna.smithmicro.com/
Kenneth Grome
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